MJK2/MJK3 Hand comparison

[Simon Wood]

Hi Brenda,

You're supposed to see what isn't there.

I would follow Amanda's sage advice.

Regards,

Simon

[richardh]

Phil, I'm scared to say in a public forum what I think I see, what is it I'm SUPPOSED to be seeing?

Brenda,
Do you see this perhaps?

[richardh]

Right then, I've remodelled the hand proportions based on an actual hand. This this the template:

The hand of a female - 5'5" (didn't have a 5'7" female available!)



and after lots of adjustments this is the best match I could get:



I'm afraid (in actual fact I'm pleased! as it strengthens my point) to say that the area you mentioned (the bloodstain) which would be the joint of the 'thumb' to the index finger is too long. Note in the image of the hands (above) that I put two red dots - one at the joint-base of the little finger and one at the joint-base of the thumb. You can see that the thumb base-joint is much further up the hand toward the wrist. In MJK3 you can see that the shadow (or base-joint) is shorter than in my 'thumb' render. It's shorter because it's a little finger!

The first images I posted on this thread were of the left hand in both MJK2 & MJK3 position. I setup the MJK2 render first and everything (all the landmarks, the hand, the bent little finger, the shadowing, the base-joint) fitted instantly when I rendered the exact same MJK2 position onto MJK3.

Personally, although I can see where people are coming from with the right thumb theory, I am more convinced than ever that MJK3 is showing a left hand and a little finger.

That thumb - if it is a thumb in MJK3 is very, very short.

This roughly demonstrates what I mean.
I've softened the scratch or bloodstain that I believe is causing the illusion of a thumb web .I also lightened some of the shadow between the two fingers.

On the second picture I drew in a purple line as I think this the top of an object (sheeting?) that is between the hand and camera, obscuring the bottom of the curled under left finger a little.

[Debra A]

Thanks for all the hard work. I suspected it was too short to be a thumb and the bloodstain (or Celtic cross tattoo ) adds to the illusion of a thumb web.

[richardh]

And a final render of the left hand using the remodelled left hand on MJK3

I've adjusted the shadowing to a close match and cropped to fit.

IMO it's a more accurate fit.

[Brenda]

.

Brenda,
Do you see this perhaps?

Hi Richard, that is somewhat close to what I see. To my eyes, the "thumb knuckle" area isn't as bulbous-looking.

[richardh]

Yes, I'd agree with that. But that's because a) my rendered hand is not resting on bedclothes/other material which would partially obscure the anterior of the 'thumb knuckle'. And b) the original images is of a left little finger and what we're seeing at the 'thumb-knuckle' area is in fact the MCP joint of the fifth phalanx (finger). So a little finger it is!

Hi Richard, that is somewhat close to what I see. To my eyes, the "thumb knuckle" area isn't as bulbous-looking.

[The Good Michael]

Seriously. One cannot just look at the hand in isolation, let alone the finger. People have seen Baphomets and initials on the wall and wine glasses and all sorts of nonsense from "careful" analysis of a given area of one photo or another. There is some common sense to be applied here by looking at the entirety of the situation. If one cannot answer all the whos and whys when one imagines something different from what is the most sensible possibility, then one should just stay with what is reasonable and predominantly accepted.


Cheers,

Mike

[Stewart P Evans]

Extended Debates

These extended debates about little finger v. thumb exemplify just how ridiculous Ripper research has become. We have two photographs of Kelly's body taken from either side of the body, depicting what is clearly the same left hand resting on the left edge of the abdominal cavity. Time, methinks, to retreat back into sublime obscurity.

[Rob Clack]

Hello Brenda... don't worry.. it will be photoshopped out soon enough. :-)

PS... go into this casebook site... go look at the photos section... go click on MJK... and then the MJK3 photo... then enlarge it....you'll need a laugh when you see that!

Phil

What are you insinuating?

[Amanda Sumner]

I have to say, I don't think I have ever come across a forum where there are so many rude people in one place.

Whatever my stance on the photograph, and nothing has changed my mind on that, I have appreciated Richardh taking the time to compare the digits on the two photographs because, clearly, many people see a thumb or a little finger. I accept that the left hand does seem to fit better but there is no denying that there is still justification too, why people see a thumb.
He is extremely talented at what he does and his work is fascinating.

It seems to me, and I must emphasise that it is merely my opinion, that what Ripper research has become is a stagnated pool of the same discussions going round and round and the only fun, it seems to me, are for those that enjoy belittling others.

I think Brenda's post said it all....

[Stewart P Evans]

Light

...
It seems to me, and I must emphasise that it is merely my opinion, that what Ripper research has become is a stagnated pool of the same discussions going round and round and the only fun, it seems to me, are for those that enjoy belittling others.
...

Ah, you are beginning to see the light.

[Wickerman]

Amanda.

If you care to look back at your introductory post on the subject..

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=303260&postcount=1

You might see what we saw, that is someone with little knowledge of all the facts yet quite prepared to jump in to the ring with boxing gloves at the ready.
You had no intention of debating the subject, indeed you made it abundantly clear that your interpretation was correct, and in future posts that 'nothing will change your mind'.

As a consequence your reception was quite deserved, so why do you complain? You set the atmosphere to start with.

[Amanda Sumner]

Amanda.

If you care to look back at your introductory post on the subject..

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=303260&postcount=1

You might see what we saw, that is someone with little knowledge of all the facts yet quite prepared to jump in to the ring with boxing gloves at the ready.
You had no intention of debating the subject, indeed you made it abundantly clear that your interpretation was correct, and in future posts that 'nothing will change your mind'.

As a consequence your reception was quite deserved, so why do you complain? You set the atmosphere to start with.

Ah the ever charming Wickerman,

I was not complaining and actually I think overall my thread was well received, certainly got a reasonably long debate about it.
Strangely, most people seemed to have little knowledge of all the facts too, which is why it went on for as long as it did, and is, as far as I'm aware, still going on.
What you see as a complaint is in fact just an observation, an opinion, that I have formed over the last few days how people respond to each other on here. Courtesy and respect would go a long way to improving the site and would be far more welcoming to any new inspired enthusiasts.
With you, being a prime and excellent example of what I'm talking about, I dare say many newcomers would not want to stay too long.

Have a nice day.

Amanda

[Brenda]

.

Hi Amanda,
try not to get discouraged. Your input is appreciated.

I did want to thank you for coming on here and asking the questions that you did and for surviving the comments and such...because you did this, I was able to find out some real answers to questions I've always had about that photo but was afraid to ask. I'm too sensitive to be a Ripper researcher! Well, the questions I've had in the past WERE asked, but no real answers were given, just that we should accept the photo at face value because we just should! I have a much better grasp on the history behind it now because of these threads.

But seriously, for me and a lot of others, hopping a plane and heading to London to do our own research is just a pipe dream. I realize there are people out there that will piggy-back off of others' hard work and try to claim glory for themselves, but a lot of us are just hobbyists hoping one day the answer to "Jack" will be found. I am very appreciative of those who have shared their knowledge with us.