MJK1 and MJK3

[Monty]

The last two posts I made were a bit hurried as I was having problems and totally lost my original post when trying to send it.

To further enlarge on this I should like to add that it should be noted that on the fourth page of the Bond notes appears a heading 'Postmortem Examination.' This has led me to believe that the last four pages of notes were written after the autopsy had been carried out and which we know was witnessed by Bond. Thus it contains further details of the wounds and internal injuries. But it is still not as detailed as the proper PM report would have been.

In looking at the McKenzie report it will be seen that every aspect of the autopsy is itemized and a detailed examination report given. And we see that even the brain was taken out and examined as would be expected in the proper autopsy.

Thus we see that the seven pages of notes by Bond are not the actual post mortem report, and this should be remembered. We are, however, fortunate indeed that Bond's notes survived as in the absence of the full post mortem examination report they are all we have and their importance was recognized and acknowledged at the time they were returned at the centenary.

Many thanks for this Stewart,

Its surprising that this aspect of post mortem protocol needs to e explained to a former murder squad detective, however...

I agree with you regarding the last four pages of Bonds notes, for the reasons you give and the fact that the heart was noted as missing.

Monty

[Debra A]

By the way, it is amazing to see the hatchet myth still running despite the fact it was knocked on the head years ago.

I hold my hands up- it's mention is probably my fault. I mentioned Nick Warren's Ripperana article on the beginning of the thread simply in response to Amanda claiming her anatomical knowledge as a nurse meant she was in a better position to state that there is no human anatomy on show in MJK3. Nick Warren was the only example I could think of someone with excellent anatomical knowledge as a surgeon, who had seen the picture and not noticed it was not human remains he was viewing. That's all.

I really should keep my sarcasm in check as I now see Amanda thinks I was serious about the remote camera button on view.

[Monty]

I hold my hands up- it's mention is probably my fault. I mentioned Nick Warren's Ripperana article on the beginning of the thread simply in response to Amanda claiming her anatomical knowledge as a nurse meant she was in a better position to state that there is no human anatomy on show in MJK3. Nick Warren was the only example I could think of someone with excellent anatomical knowledge as a surgeon, who had seen the picture and not noticed it was not human remains he was viewing. That's all.

I really should keep my sarcasm in check as I now see Amanda thinks I was serious about the remote camera button on view.

That's how I interpreted it Debs,

An example.

As for your sarcasm, you are not accountable for the ignorance of others.

Monty

[Stewart P Evans]

Myth

I hold my hands up- it's mention is probably my fault. I mentioned Nick Warren's Ripperana article on the beginning of the thread simply in response to Amanda claiming her anatomical knowledge as a nurse meant she was in a better position to state that there is no human anatomy on show in MJK3. Nick Warren was the only example I could think of someone with excellent anatomical knowledge as a surgeon, who had seen the picture and not noticed it was not human remains he was viewing. That's all.
I really should keep my sarcasm in check as I now see Amanda thinks I was serious about the remote camera button on view.

Yes, I am aware that you realize the place of these things and that you are one of the sensible posters (so hard to find these days).

I never did agree with Nick on his interpretation of the 'split femur' from such a murky photograph. He was the originator of this story and his standing as a surgeon certainly means that what he says should be taken seriously. As we know the idea was sparked by the fact that a later newspaper article about the 'Black Museum' commented on the fact that the writer had seen, in the museum, the hatchet used by 'the Whitechapel murderer.'

This, of course, was correct but 'the Whitechapel murderer' referred to was not 'Jack the Ripper', nor was the murder connected with the 1888 series. The original press-christened 'Whitechapel murderer' was Henry Wainwright who had a shop at 215 Whitechapel Road. He murdered and dissected the body of his mistress, Harriet Lane, and used the hatchet in the process. Tried in 1875, he was executed at Newgate Prison on 21 December 1875 by William Marwood.

The hatchet he used was once displayed in the Black Museum labelled as the one used by the 'Whitechapel Murderer', which was the term widely used in 1875 to describe Wainwright. And this is how it was, in later years, misinterpreted as having been used by the Ripper.

[Stewart P Evans]

Homework

...
I am more than happy to stand toe to toe with you and debate some of these contentious issues. The gauntlet is down. will you pick it up ?

Do your homework, polish up your knowledge of the case, and then you may be in a position to debate 'contentious issues' with me. However, some of these issues are contentious only in your mind as you are often the only person making some outrageous contention or other.

[Natasha]

Hi All

I was wondering if anyone knows who the photographers of the victims were.

I think it is possible that photographers kept some of the photos, and their families may have more photos.
I think that if we can narrow down the photographers, then maybe we might be able to get some more pics of the victims. After all MJK3 was handed in 100 years after it was taken.

I have found a few photographers who may have taken some of the photos. I have chosen to add them as they were living in East London in 1888, and had a connection there. Even if some had retired etc, it is quite plausible that they may have been called in to take a picture.

Here are the candidates:

Barnes, Thomas John
Born Whitechapel 1809.
Christened April 22 1810 in Whitechapel.
Md Mary Sarah Towler (b City of London 1802) January 18 1836 in Finsbury.
1 son.
STUDIOS: 1. 3 Hope Place, Mile End Road, Stepney 1858 - 1861.
2. 52 Crown Row, Mile End Road, Stepney 1861 - October 1 1863.
3. Bedford House, 6 Bedford Place, Commercial Road East, Poplar 1864 - 1866. Succeeded by Dumain & Orchard.
4. 422 Mile End Road, Stepney October 2 1863 - 1887. Succeeded by W Wright.
1861: photographer living at 10 Albion Road, Finchley Road, also proprietor of houses.
Widower.
Freemason, member of Doric Lodge March 11 1863, passed April 8 1863, raised May 13 1863.
Member of the Photographic Society (later The Royal Photographic Society) from January 1871.
Exhibited 2 views 1858 - 1861 at the annual exhibitions of the Architectural Photographic Association.
Worked for Dr Barnardo's Homes, taking before and after photographs of homeless and destitute children at the Homes, also the Methodist Children's Home in Bethnal Green. Barnardo's contract lost 1887.
Bill of sale to Union Deposit Bank July 24 1886 £60.
County court judgement: July 30 1886 £15/14/11, February 22 1887 £17/0/8, July 13 1887 £17/19/2, May 7 1889 £24/19/2.
1891: retired photographer, living at 51 St George's Road, Leyton with 2 grandchildren.
Died in Leytonstone February 11 1901.
BIBLIOGRAPHY: On developing negatives with salts of iron IN PJ June 1858.

Ernest, Charles E
Born in City of London 1836.
Md Martha (b Bow 1841).
1 daughter.
STUDIO: 106 Leighton Road, Kentish Town, St Pancras 1879 - 1880.
1881: engraver living at 68 Pitfield Street, Shoreditch.
1901: general labourer living in London. Also vocalist.
Bill of sale to Imperial Discount Co June 14 1880 £50.
Died in Whitechapel 1905.

Faller, Frederick John
Born in Finsbury 1832.
Md Emma Elizabeth Gibbs (1830 - 1891) June 1 1856 in Bethnal Green.
STUDIO: 118 Whitechapel High Street, Stepney 1861 - 1862. Confectioner here 1863 - 1864.
Confectioner at 121 Whitechapel High Street, Stepney 1861 - 1865.
1881: engineer living at 239 Green Street, Cambridge Road, Bethnal Green.
Died in City of London 1893.

Gottheil, Elias
Born in Prussia 1820. Naturalised British subject November 30 1858.
Md Ann (b Whitechapel 1826).
3 daughters.
STUDIOS: 1. 17a Jubilee Street, Mile End Road, Stepney 1857 - 1863.
2. 23 Assembly Row, Mile End Road, Stepney 1862 - October 1 1863.
3. 120 Mile End Road, Stepney October 2 1863 - 1883. Successors to H Carpenter. Aka Assembly House - for sale November 1882. Opposite Eagle PH.
4. 39 Amhurst Road, Hackney 1887 - 1896. Succeeded by G Maithouse. Also artist here 1891 - 1892; private address 1893 - 1899.
Freemason of Doric Lodge, joined from Faith Lodge 141 April 8 1863.
Secretary of East London Secular Society & editor of Secularist 1856.
Contributed 6 photos of George Jacob Holyoake to Reasoner bazaar May 1857.
Died in Hackney 1899.

Howes, Emma
Born in Whitechapel 1860.
Christened January 13 1861 in City of London.
STUDIO: 204 Mare Street, Hackney 1881 - 1883.
1901: living in Mile End, Stepney.
Bill of sale to Thomas N. Etheridge March 10 1884, £35 Frederick Holloway June 13 1884 £40.
Died in Poplar 1924.

The following photographer (Martin) as far as I know, is the only one mentioned on CB, well his son was mentioned:

Martin, John
Born in Whitechapel 1862.
Christened December 13 1863 in Stepney.
2 brothers.
Md. Elizabeth (b St George in East 1863).
2 sons & 4 daughters.
STUDIOS: 1. 261 Commercial Road East, Poplar 1891 - 1892.
2. 245 Commercial Road East, Poplar 1892 - 1909. Successors to Israel Martin; succeeded by Louis & Joseph Suss.
1881: waiter at his brother Joseph's restaurant 231 Commercial Road East, Poplar.
1891: photographer living at 245 Commercial Road East, Poplar.
1901: photographer living at 304 Commercial Road East, Poplar.
Styled "& Son" 1891.
County court judgement February 4 1902 £29/3/-, October 28 1904 £32/6/10.
Brother of Isaac, Israel & Joseph Martin.
Aka Martinotype Studio; aka Fine Art Photographic Gallery.
Died in Whitechapel 1909.
COLLECTIONS: Museum of Jewish life.
LITERATURE: advert IN East London Advertiser August 1892 (as established 1851).

The following (Sager and Hutchings) may have photographed the other victims after the C5:

Sager, Samuel
Born in Blackburn 1860.
Christened January 20 1861 in City of London.
STUDIO: 111 New Road, Whitechapel 1897 - 1899.
1881: grocer's assistant living as patient in Islington Smallpox Hospital.
Date of death unknown.

Hutchings, Thomas Alder
Born in Westminster 1845.
1 brother.
Md Emma (b Westminster 1845).
1 son & 2 daughters.
STUDIO: 756 Old Kent Road, Camberwell 1883 - 1884.
1871: photographer living at 7 Calverley Street, Mile End Road, Stepney.
1881: photographer living at 756 Old Kent Road, Camberwell.
1891: photographer living at 4 Ridgate Court, Minories, City of London.
1901: photographer living at 78 Oxford Street, Mile End, Stepney.
Spent 11 years as photographic operator with Barnes & Son, Mile End Road, Stepney.
Died in Whitechapel 1908.


Walker, Samuel
Born in City of London 1818.
Md Hannah (1819 - 1893).
1 son.
STUDIOS: 1. 4 Prospect Place, Cambridge Road, Bethnal Green 1866 - July 31 1879.
2.18 Bishops Road, Cambridge Road, Bethnal Green August 1 1879 - 1883. Succeeded by Henry Marshall.
Portrait painter & photographer in York 1844 - July 1849.
Exhibited at RA 1850 - 1851, from 18 Buckingham Street, Strand, Westminster.
10 photos taken of ruins of Haymarket Opera House December 1867.
Styled "& Son" 1867.
Died in Whitechapel 1892.

Wright, William George Henry
Born in Bethnal Green 1860.
Md Sarah Johnson (b Bethnal Green 1860).
2 sons.
STUDIOS: 1. 12 Millfield Place, Green Lanes, Stoke Newington 1877 - June 16 1881. Absorbed into Green Lanes June 17 1881.
2. 189 - 190 Bethnal Green Road, Bethnal Green 1879 - 1884.
3. 69 Green Lanes, Stoke Newington June 17 1881 - 1884. Printing works.
4. 188 - 190 Bethnal Green Road, Bethnal Green 1884 - 1892.
5. 98 Cheapside, City of London 3 floor 1884 - 1896. Successors to William Henry Prestwich; succeeded by Club Photographic Co.
6. 71 Green Lanes, Stoke Newington 1886 - 1891. Printing works. Succeeded by Robert Hellis.
7. 10 Upper Street, Islington 1886 - 1891. Successors to George & John Springthorpe; succeeded by Edward Sharp.
8. 81 Whitechapel High Street, Stepney 1886 - 1895. Successors to William Hobbs.
9. 422 Mile End Road, Stepney 1889 - 1898. Successors to Thomas John Barnes; succeeded by Henry Francis Turner.
10. 83 Bishopsgate Street Without, City of London 3 floor 1891 - 1909. Renumbered as studio 14 in 1910. Bought by Alfred James Lewis 1900. Aka Adam & Eve Buildings.
11. 189 Bethnal Green Road, Bethnal Green 1893 - 1896.
12. 232 Mare Street, Hackney 1893 - 1897. Successors to Richard Beckett; succeeded by Hellis & Sons.
13. 93 Whitechapel High Street, Stepney 1896 - 1899. Succeeded by Frederick William Lewis.
14. 266 Bishopsgate, City of London 3 floor March 1 1910 - 1911.
15. 21 Broadway, Stratford - in Pritchard, but untraced.
County court judgement January 21 1885 £12/17/- (with 2 other firms) at 109 Bethnal Green Road, Bethnal Green, July 29 1908 £10/6/6.
Bill of sale to John Mills June 30 1908 £70.
Bankrupt June 4 1909.
Son of Edward Wright.
Died in West Ham 1915.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Stewart

The last two posts I made were a bit hurried as I was having problems and totally lost my original post when trying to send it.

To further enlarge on this I should like to add that it should be noted that on the fourth page of the Bond notes appears a heading 'Postmortem Examination.' This has led me to believe that the last four pages of notes were written after the autopsy had been carried out and which we know was witnessed by Bond. Thus it contains further details of the wounds and internal injuries. But it is still not as detailed as the proper PM report would have been.

Bonds report, post mortem or otherwise is the only report there is detailing the wounds and the injuries. It is clearly in the form of a post mortem report, to say not is splitting hairs. I totally disagree as to its detailed contents.

You know as well as I do that there is no way Bond or any other doctor could sit down and write such a lengthy and detailed report without an aide-memoire. In this case that would have been the notes taken down at the time of the post mortem, and from whoever made the notes from the scene at Millers Court if not Bond himself.

I have pointed out that Phillips inquest testimony stops at the point where he should have gone onto give his PM report. Why was that ? The answer is there was no need for two doctors to prepare the same report, One would suffice. For whatever reason the coroner chose not to admit any PM report as evidence at the truncated inquest.

As to the chain of events with regards to Bonds involvement it is no different to today when a murder is discovered. The first doctor on the scene is likely to be the police doctor, it is then handed over to a forensic pathologist who carries out the post mortem and prepares a post mortem report The police doctor then becomes an observer at best. ( Shades of Millers Court 1888)?

Of course its again convenient to some to use this explanation of an edited version to explain important issue not being mentioned. i.e missing heart !

In looking at the McKenzie report it will be seen that every aspect of the autopsy is itemized and a detailed examination report given. And we see that even the brain was taken out and examined as would be expected in the proper autopsy.

You cant compare this to Millers Court he had more time and was under less pressure besides her murder was totally different to Kelly`s murder,

.

[Stewart P Evans]

Understand

Hi Stewart

Your post merely shows how little you understand what you see.

[Stewart P Evans]

Photographers

The identity of the photographers who took the victim photographs has been widely researched and discussed by others.

The reverse of the Tabram victim photograph bears the legend 'Photographs of the unknown dead'...and the name Louis Gumprecht. However research has shown the most likely photographer to be Joseph Martin (1850-1933) an entry upon whom is in the latest A-Z. More recently Keith and I have identified a different photographer as taking the Eddowes mortuary photographs.

[Debra A]

Thanks Neil and Stewart. Good to know I make sense sometimes.

[Stewart P Evans]

TM - You know as well as I do that there is no way Bond or any other doctor could sit down and write such a lengthy and detailed report without an aide-memoire. In this case that would have been the notes taken down at the time of the post mortem, and from whoever made the notes from the scene at Millers Court if not Bond himself.

Full notes were obviously taken by Bond (and or) Hebbett at the scene and at the post mortem examination at the mortuary. Bond's seven pages of notes would then have been transcribed onto the sheets which were submitted with his report for Anderson.

[Natasha]

The identity of the photographers who took the victim photographs has been widely researched and discussed by others.

The reverse of the Tabram victim photograph bears the legend 'Photographs of the unknown dead'...and the name Louis Gumprecht. However research has shown the most likely photographer to be Joseph Martin (1850-1933) an entry upon whom is in the latest A-Z. More recently Keith and I have identified a different photographer as taking the Eddowes mortuary photographs.

Hi Stewart,

Thanks

I saw the reverse of the Tabram pic, and Joseph Martin is related to John Martin (I think) who I mentioned in my post.

Who was the photographer of Eddowes who you speak of, if you don't mind me asking?

[Trevor Marriott]

Do your homework, polish up your knowledge of the case, and then you may be in a position to debate 'contentious issues' with me. However, some of these issues are contentious only in your mind as you are often the only person making some outrageous contention or other.

Well unlike you I am have not become immersed or brainwashed into believing facts, which have now clearly been proved to be not as we have been led to believe.

So to those that fall into those categories what I say would seem outrageous.

The truth hurts and is a bitter pill to swallow

It seems you colors are still firmly nailed to the mast ! and you are clearly not taking the pills.

[Stewart P Evans]

TM - I have pointed out that Phillips inquest testimony stops at the point where he should have gone onto give his PM report. Why was that ? The answer is there was no need for two doctors to prepare the same report, One would suffice. For whatever reason the coroner chose not to admit any PM report as evidence at the truncated inquest.

Dr Phillips was notoriously reluctant to give the full medical details, on the autopsies he conducted, at public hearings. He was even in dispute with Wynne Baxter over this. At the Kelly inquest, which we all know was contentiously shortened to the one hearing by coroner Roderick Macdonald, and Phillips never gave full post mortem details at a public hearing. The Times of 13 November 1888 commented that 'The jury had no questions to ask at this stage, and it was understood that more detailed evidence of the medical examination would be given at a further hearing.' There was no further hearing.

[Stewart P Evans]

TM - As to the chain of events with regards to Bonds involvement it is no different to today when a murder is discovered. The first doctor on the scene is likely to be the police doctor, it is then handed over to a forensic pathologist who carries out the post mortem and prepares a post mortem report The police doctor then becomes an observer at best. ( Shades of Millers Court 1888)?

Things were a bit different in those days. As we all know, in modern murder cases the autopsy is always conducted by a Home Office pathologist.

Bond was the A Division police surgeon and Phillips was the H Division police surgeon. Ergo Phillips was the main surgeon conducting the autopsies for the H Division cases. Bond was merely acting as an observer at Anderson's behest.