MJK1 and MJK3

[Monty]

No more than he deserves.
It still looks like a thumb to me...

Oop, not such a martyr after all.

As we are giving mere opinions, It looks like Kelly's left hand to me.

Monty

[Monty]

I'd be surprised if they wasn't. Why look at good quality images when low resolution images where you can see what ever you want to in them will do.

Rob

Phil has admitted as much.

A giant vulture did it.

Monty

[Amanda Sumner]

Hello Amanda,

Thank you for your responses. Again though, be aware...responding to me with even civility will win you no (box) Brownie points- I am sure that after a while you will get told that your poor electronic copy of the photo, or your low resolution screen- or richardh's for that matter- or anyone else's- just isnt up to scratch- followed by an insipidly aimed written swipe, Watch the birdie! :-)

khnd regards

Phil

Hello Phil,
As I said to Rob, in a previous post that whatever issues there are between you have nothing to do with me but if agreeing with you on certain issues do me no favours, well, so be it.
So far, I doubt I've won many brownie points from most on this board, although some have been very supportive, including yourself.
I came on here because I believed the photograph was not genuine. I have tried to show that and put my case forward.
I believe I, and others, have done that but most chose to ignore.
Maybe there will never be a definitive answer, simply because we don't know enough about it. However I think I have shown that there are some serious issues with the photograph.
Someone said that I was not interested in its provenance but just wanted people to agree with me. That's simply not true. If that's all I was interested in, I would have long gone, because I have met with opposition throughout this thread. I expected that. I did not expect, however, to have my integrity questioned or be accused of somehow involved in a conspiracy or have an agenda of my own. Neither am I a martyr.
I simply wanted answers to something that has puzzled me for sometime and to share my conviction that MJK3 is not what it is purported to be.

[Wickerman]

In the case of Kelly the notes at the post mortem were taken down by Hebbert. Phillips and Bond were both present. One of the doctors thereafter had to prepare a post mortem report, that person was Bond we know that because we have that report.

From that report he prepared his second report to Anderson

There was no need for Phillips to prepare a report. As stated his inquest testimony stops short of introducing any post mortem report.

An Autopsy is a Post-mortem, but a Post-mortem is not an Autopsy.

Any examination of a dead body is a post-mortem, but only the official examination authorized by the Coroner, and required to be submitted at an Inquest, is an Autopsy.

Dr bond conducted a post-mortem on the remains of Mary Kelly on Friday 9th Nov. as requested by Anderson in order to give Anderson his opinion on whether the wounds showed evidence of skill - that is all that he was requested to do.

Dr. Phillips conducted the Autopsy, ordered by Macdonald Saturday morning.
You appear to confuse one, with the other.

Dr. Bond's report was merely a post-mortem likely conducted on the Friday, the official Autopsy began at 7:30 am on Saturday morning under the supervision of Dr. Phillips.

As early as half past 7 on Saturday morning, Dr. Phillips, assisted by Dr. Bond (Westminster), Dr. Gordon Brown (City), Dr. Duke (Spitalfields) and his (Dr. Phillips') assistant, made an exhaustive post-mortem examination of the body at the mortuary adjoining Whitechapel Church. It is known that after Dr. Phillips "fitted" the cut portions of the body into their proper places no portion was missing. At the first examination which was only of a cursory character, it was thought that a portion of the body had gone, but this is not the case.
Times, 12 Nov. 1888

Please note the last line, above, re:
At the first examination which was only of a cursory character, it was thought that a portion of the body had gone, but this is not the case.

This line refers to the cursory examination by Dr. Bond on Friday, where, if you recall, he stated the heart was "absent".

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil,

So far, I doubt I've won many brownie points from most on this board, although some have been very supportive, including yourself.
I came on here because I believed the photograph was not genuine. I have tried to show that and put my case forward.
I believe I, and others, have done that but most chose to ignore.
Maybe there will never be a definitive answer, simply because we don't know enough about it. However I think I have shown that there are some serious issues with the photograph.
Someone said that I was not interested in its provenance but just wanted people to agree with me. That's simply not true. If that's all I was interested in, I would have long gone, because I have met with opposition throughout this thread. I expected that. I did not expect, however, to have my integrity questioned or be accused of somehow involved in a conspiracy or have an agenda of my own. Neither am I a martyr.
I simply wanted answers to something that has puzzled me for sometime and to share my conviction that MJK3 is not what it is purported to be.

Hello Amanda,

Thank you for the reply- and most eloquently put imho.
I am sorry you have had all those things thrown at you I am sure- indeed, that many other enthusiasts no doubt dont approve either.

Sad imho.

best wishes

Phil .

[Amanda Sumner]

[QUOTE=Wickerman;304669]An Autopsy is a Post-mortem, but a Post-mortem is not an Autopsy.

Any examination of a dead body is a post-mortem, but only the official examination authorized by the Coroner, and required to be submitted at an Inquest, is an Autopsy.

Dr bond conducted a post-mortem on the remains of Mary Kelly on Friday 9th Nov. as requested by Anderson in order to give Anderson his opinion on whether the wounds showed evidence of skill - that is all that he was requested to do.

Dr. Phillips conducted the Autopsy, ordered by Macdonald Saturday morning.
You appear to confuse one, with the other.QUOTE]


That is incorrect. An autopsy is an Americanism for postmortem. They are both the same thing.

Wikipedia:

n science:

Post-mortem examination, or autopsy, an examination of a corpse in order to determine cause of death
Post-mortem interval, the time that has elapsed since a person has died
Postmortem studies, a neurobiological research method
Postmortem documentation, a technical analysis of a finished project

[Tom_Wescott]

Finally, one thing we can all agree on...

Amanda,

I think Tom Wescott's post was dead on. You may want to read it again.

You're lucky to get advice from Tom and Rob who are two of the best in Ripperology so I wouldn't take their posts too lightly.

Cheers
DRoy

Probably the most sensible post on the entire thread.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

Well Maybe one ...

Probably the most sensible post on the entire thread.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Maybe one person agrees with it anyway

[GUT]

And just to be clear when DRoy said

You're lucky to get advice from Tom and Rob who are two of the best in Ripperology so I wouldn't take their posts too lightly.

He gets no arguments from this little black duck.

[Debra A]

No 'Triangle' on the hand so I think we can put that one to bed.
[ATTACH]16160[/ATTACH]

And the first page of Doctor Bonds report.
[ATTACH]16161[/ATTACH]

Rob

Thanks Rob old bean!
Wow, how did I miss the obvious? It's not a traingle it's really an inverted 'Gull' and MJK's left hand is really John Netley's, I can clearly see the hairy knuckles ..Now, who was it said that the Royal Conspiracy was a load of crap? They were totally wrong.

[GUT]

Thanks Rob old bean!
Wow, how did I miss the obvious? It's not a traingle it's really an inverted 'Gull' and MJK's left hand is really John Netley's, I can clearly see the hairy knuckles ..Now, who was it said that the Royal Conspiracy was a load of crap? They were totally wrong.

G'day Debra

You've cracked it!

[Debra A]

G'day Debra

You've cracked it!

Why thank you kindly GUT. You won't get any Tesco clubcard points from the RC deniers for agreeing with me though.

[miss marple]

Left or right hand the 'thumb' would not be in the position that the little finger is
unless her hand was back to front. the little finger has to be closest to the thigh so it must be a finger. Ain't that obvious or am I missing something?

Miss Marple

[Debra A]

Left or right hand the 'thumb' would not be in the position that the little finger is
unless her hand was back to front. the little finger has to be closest to the thigh so it must be a finger. Ain't that obvious or am I missing something?

Miss Marple

Well,yes. It is obvious to some of us Miss Marple. But somehow, explaining this against Amanda's adamant assertions the picture is definitely a fake became an act of hostility towards her.
Amanda and the people who are certain this is a thumb believe there is a person bobbed down at the table side of the bed with his/her head covered over and his/her right hand placed into MJK's abdomen from what I can gather.

[Trevor Marriott]

Well,yes. It is obvious to some of us Miss Marple. But somehow, explaining this against Amanda's adamant assertions the picture is definitely a fake became an act of hostility towards her.
Amanda and the people who are certain this is a thumb believe there is a person bobbed down at the table side of the bed with his/her head covered over and his/her right hand placed into MJK's abdomen from what I can gather.

As you know I have not got involved in this issue of fakery or not because as I said it doesn't detract from what happened in that room. I realize that there is a big argument as to whether the finger shown in MJK 4 is a finger of thumb.

I have been looking carefully at all the photos and the angle of the body etc and come to the final conclusion that the the digit seen nearest to the camera is in fact a little finger of a left hand.

The original crime scene photo MJK is attached below and is a good clear photo which shows the position of the body and clearly shows the position of the left arm and left hand which is consistent with what is shown in MJK 4

I will continue to study the photos but first impressions suggest that MJK 4 is not a fake despite it lack of provenance.