MJK1 and MJK3

[Stewart P Evans]

Suggestion

...
I'll happily accept your word for use of the same camera, but why different formats between shots? Why the relatively small carte de visite format for MJK3?
...
Simon

As I have said, this is not the only example of two different sized photographs being produced. It occurred in the case of Eddowes also. Most of the earlier victim photographs are, though, CDV sized.

However, bearing in mind that (i) this was the embryonic stage of crime scene photography, (ii) after the Stride and Eddowes murders the name Jack the Ripper gained currency and (iii) the Kelly murder was a sensational climax to the series, with a scene of extreme mutilation, it is understandable that the full scene MJK 1 was depicted in a larger sized photograph. As we know, Anderson and Macnaghten both kept copies of the photograph to hand and were not averse to producing them for interested parties such as the press.

As I said, the full scene shot of the bed has much more impact than the murky partial body shot in the second in which it is difficult to work out just what you are looking at.

[jmenges]

Hi Simon,

I think the question should be why the Cabinet card size for MJK1. CDV's can make 12 prints off of a single plate, if you were inclined to, say, pass them around or put them into 12 different albums, it was the most efficient way. So one would think that CDV's for all of the photographs would have been the preferred size. I believe MJK2 is the same Cabinet size, so made off of the same plate negative? One would think that there should have been CDV's taken of the MJK1/2 angle as well, if they were to be handed out.

JM

Edit- post crossed with SPE, who makes a good point re: the reason behind the size.

[Stewart P Evans]

Three Original Prints

I have examined closely, and photographed, three original prints of the larger photograph (MJK 1). They are the one from the City Police archives (quite damaged), the one from the Millen album (now at Kew), and the one that Macnaghten gave to George R Sims (the best and clearest of them all). All are the same size. The only other example that I know of of the Metropolitan Police 'handing out' a copy was the one sent to France which was used by Lacassagne.

[Stewart P Evans]

Another point...

Another point to note is that of all the Ripper victim photographs those of the Kelly murder are the only actual crime scene photographs taken before the body was removed.

[jmenges]

So there could have only been 4 originals of this, using 2 shots and the photographer used 2 plates to make them. (or 3 plates to make 6 etc.)

JM

[Rob Clack]

The photos as they looked in 2011.



Rob

[Debra A]

Thanks Rob. That answers the question about the number 4 in the corner that was asked about earlier and I wondered about too.

[Rob Clack]

Yes, we should have a e-mail discussion about it

[Rob Clack]

Hello Richardh,

It has been suggested, or guesstimated, that this refers to one of a set of Kelly photos.

The obvious answer is that MJK 1 or MJK2 have no corner number.

So the answer is...not known at present.


best regards

Phil

It's been known for a few years.

[GUT]

I have examined closely, and photographed, three original prints of the larger photograph (MJK 1). They are the one from the City Police archives (quite damaged), the one from the Millen album (now at Kew), and the one that Macnaghten gave to George R Sims (the best and clearest of them all). All are the same size. The only other example that I know of of the Metropolitan Police 'handing out' a copy was the one sent to France which was used by Lacassagne.

Thank you for that Stewart, it is something I have been trying to find out for some time.

[GUT]

Hi Stewart,

If MJK1 is Cabinet size [8" x 6"] and MJK3 is Carte De Visite size [3.5" x 2.25"], this suggests the two photographs were taken with different cameras.

Regards,

Simon

G'day Simon

Not necessarily, whilst by a long long way contact prints were the norm, enlargements could be made. It was also not uncommon to shoot say a 5x4 plate [or any other size] and then crop them to emphasize the subject.

I doubt that is what happened here but can't be totally ruled out.

[Tom_Wescott]

Some good posts from Stewart and Rob.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Thank you for supplying the photos.
Question
.
1. Are the numbers printed on the photographs themselves or on the page as a presentation?



I also note that whoever typed the labels of the victims names has changed MJK's middle name to Janette.....

[GUT]

Thank you for supplying the photos.
Question
.
1. Are the numbers printed on the photographs themselves or on the page as a presentation?

G'day Phil

It looks clear to me that the numbers are written on the page where the cut is to slip the corner of the photo under or the photo corners you used to stick in books to hold photos.

[Phil Carter]

G'day Phil

It looks clear to me that the numbers are written on the page where the cut is to slip the corner of the photo under or the photo corners you used to stick in books to hold photos.

Hello GUT,

It looks like that to me too, but I am no expert, just a person with two eyes that are apparently in perfect working order.

Does that mean that whoever put this series together on THIS album page clearly didnt have a copy of the STRIDE photo?

I would have thought that Scotland Yard would have had a copy of that at the turn of the century- if by that it means ca.1900 and not ca.2000

Phil