MJK1, MJK2 and moving body

[richardh]

Red cloth animation.. (sorry for the new post but my edit time expired!

[richardh]

stu,
In response to your suggestion about the fabric (now know as 'red cloth'!

Here's the 3D 's of 'red cloth' in relation to MJK1 & MJK2. Seems they also match up.

I'll try to do a quick .gif animation to prove I've not just painted a bit of red cloth on a flat picture

[Disco Stu]

Hi Richard,

Bang on the money with the red marking. What do you think? The possible cut/garter line starts just above your number 9 (in MJK2). I've tried lightening, darkening, inverting, but I just can't get it to stand out. So I've circled it.



I get where you're coming from with the garter/cut line. I have a few reasons though:
-The skin tone changes above the line. I believe it is exposed sinew we're seeing above the line. The same area in MJK2 also looks, to me, like exposed sinew;
-It's hard to tell whether the left thigh was cut below the knee, due to the camera angle. The lower cuts may be in a similar position on both legs;
-The PM states, "The whole of the surface of the abdomen & thighs was removed". The only other potential demarcation, as far as I can see, lies between your numbers 4 & 5 (in MJK1).

Regarding your question of regularity, I can only say that I've seen animals skinned and a neat, circular cut is fairly simple through fur. That even seems to apply to inexperienced cutters, as long as there is someone to tell the how to do it. No, I'm not suggesting it was a slaughterman (before anyone asks).

There seems to be more blood on the right leg than the left, despite there being more extensive dissection of the left thigh, according to the PM, and a long gash down the left calf.

[Michael W Richards]

I really do think that MJK's Legs and hips were rotated to the right for the MJK2 photo. In the first photo (MJK1) her left knee is close to the mattress yet in MJK2 it is quite high off the mattress.

I post below the image I made last year to demonstrate:



That IS the left knee I'm looking at isn't it (in MJK2)?

Can someone post MJK1 & 2 with dots where her left and right patella are please?

I saw the CGI recreation you made starting with the MJK photos Richard,..quite well done.

It occurs to me that based on your question above that some people may not be aware that both of Marys thighs were stripped of skin and viscera, the left one was only stripped on the inside of the thigh...therefore it looks intact on one side and is almost translucent from the other side, due to the material being stripped from it.

Also, interesting suggestion that MJK 2 was taken from the alcove via an opened window, and that MJK 3's angle suggests that the bed was moved.

On point B, I said that forever here, without support. Your point A also makes some sense, they could have recorded that the windows were locked when they entered, but there is no need to then assume they remained locked while they were in the room,...the scene itself and the smell might have necessitated the opening, not just to take the photo.

Cheers

[richardh]

There's two more items I'd like to point out, as much as anything to try and clarify alignments. The first is the positioning of the fold of fabric just to the left of the hand in MJK1. I notice in MJK2, a small patch of white in line with the hand and with the drooped corner of (for argument's sake) the bolster on the table. What do you think of this as being the tip of the aforementioned fabric?

The second is the cut/garter line you note in MJK1. Sad to say, I believe this is a cut off point for where her knee was skinned. Tracing a line from the little finger in MJK2 to the opposite edge, I see a faint line running diagonally left-down. Is it possible to add this line in to your model and check if it does line up, please?

stu,
I have marked the area in red where I think you're referring to the fold of fabric in both pictures.

I can't see where you mean about the faint diag line. where are we looking - using the yellow line and numbers?



thanks.

N.B: Do you not think that 'garter/cut' line in MJK2 is a bit too neat and circular (and blood drip free) to be a gash?

[Disco Stu]

Hi Richard,

I had to give this thread a miss for a while: After last weekend's close analysis, I wasn't sleeping so well. I take my hat off to your resolve.

I want to stress that I've got no wish to push my opinion over your original idea. I just didn't want you putting your usual high level of effort into, what looked to me, a wrong turn.

There's two more items I'd like to point out, as much as anything to try and clarify alignments. The first is the positioning of the fold of fabric just to the left of the hand in MJK1. I notice in MJK2, a small patch of white in line with the hand and with the drooped corner of (for argument's sake) the bolster on the table. What do you think of this as being the tip of the aforementioned fabric?

The second is the cut/garter line you note in MJK1. Sad to say, I believe this is a cut off point for where her knee was skinned. Tracing a line from the little finger in MJK2 to the opposite edge, I see a faint line running diagonally left-down. Is it possible to add this line in to your model and check if it does line up, please?

[Prosector]

Thanks Richard - I'm sure your right. And looking at MJK2 again it's fairly clear that the table has been moved out and more towards the foot of the bed in order to shift the bed so that now the abdominal flaps are nearer to her knee than her shoulder as they are in MJK1.

[richardh]

The little finger on Mary's left hand does look thumb-like in MJK2 because it's a trick of the light. However, If you look at my render (the render above and in all of my Miller's court videos & 3D's) you can see that the hand, wrist and little finder line up nicely against the real MJK2 photo.

The two objects (couple of hams) are in fact bed clothes (or some contend it is a bolster).



I would also suggest that those bed clothes were the same bed clothes that first appear on MJK1 stuffed down the side of the bed by her right leg. I reckon that when they photographed MJK2 they removed the bed clothes in order to place the camera into the MJK2 position (perhaps on the washstand?). It's a suggestion.

[Prosector]

I am fascinated by this thread because I was about to ask the same questions myself. I think there is something deeply troubling about MJK2 to the extent that I almost wonder if it wasn't faked later for some reason. A point that no-one has mentioned is the hand in MJK2. It looks very much as if it is the thumb that is visible in the picture but in that case it would have to be someone's right hand, not their left. It may be that it is a trick of the light and it is actually her little finger we are looking at but it looks awfully like a thumb.

My next question is what are the objects on the table to the left that look like a couple of hams? The three flaps of her abdominal wall would seem to be on the right of the table so what are these other things that don't look at all blood stained?

Prosector

[richardh]

Me again!
I have AGAIN updated my thinking and decided that it it entirely possible for the police photographer to take MJK2 (partition wall toward main door) without moving anything. This is in line with Disco Stu's theory which I can now show is valid.

In this image below I have positioned the camera so that it 'closely' matches MJK2. Note (as per Disco Stu suggests) that the right leg is now in the position I originally assumed was MJK's left leg (the pointy thing sticking up).

Note also that the door knob in the render is in more or less the same location as shown in MJK2 (assuming it is the door knob) and the bright light strip coincides with the corner of the room or perhaps the window frame.

It's certainly not a perfect match, perhaps because I have no idea of original lens size or focal length. Also the original MJK2 images (well the images from the internet) may well have altered in dimensions (width /height).

But it does demonstrate that perhaps MJK2 was achieved with minimal disturbance of the crime scene AND demonstrates also that the bed, table and Kelly's postmortem position could remain exactly the same in both MJK1 & MJK2.

[richardh]

Forgot to add this .gif animation but I can't edit the above post now. Have to put it here. soz.

[richardh]

Stu
Is this what you mean?



This layout was actually quite a bit easier to position because I kept MJK in the exact position as she is seen in MJK1. All I did was move the bed and table and stuck the camera on a something that would be about the same height as the big table might have been (or perhaps the washstand?)

This scenario allows for MJK's legs to remain in the same position as MJK1.

Also, note the door knob (if it IS the door knob?) in MJK2, and the door knob in my render. They are in corresponding locations. And that strip of brightness corresponds with the corner of the room between the door frame and the small window.

This scenario might be something to build on.

[Disco Stu]

The blue spots mark the general location; with it being a reverse angle in MJK1, it appears out of place, but imagine the exposed muscle is transparent in MJK1 and the spot indicates where I marked in MJK2. The description could have been better, let's add, "...and hip...", before muscles.

The yellow spot hasn't moved. My suggestion is that the area indicated, which looks to be immediately under the leg in MJK1, is actually behind (ie. to the right of the right leg). The precise location in MJK2 is hard to pinpoint due to the heavier shading from that angle. I've placed it where a glimpse of white is visible, but it's for convenience sake only: The precise spot may not be visible in MJK2 due to the camera angle.

I suppose the best analogy I can offer for the above is to photograph a man through a tunnel on a cloudy day. You can see him silhouetted in the far end, but without shadows to guide you, it's difficult to say if he's half way through the tunnel, at the entrance, or outside completely. In MJK2, taken from the other end of the tunnel as it were, the, "sheet", can now be seen to be not under the leg, as it no longer obscures the view under it.

Regarding the position of the left hand, the finger tips could well be in line with the right thigh. Assuming, as MJK2's perspective suggests, that the right leg was ~vertically elevated, not angled right as MJK1's perspective suggests, the hand needn't have moved.

[richardh]

Your blue splodge (exposed abdominal muscles)... How can it be to the right of the right leg in MJK2 ?

In MJK1 you have the blue splodge positioned to the left of the right leg (mid-line as would be expected given that the abdo is a mid-line structure) but in your MJK2 photo you have the blue splodge to the right of the right leg. You can't have a mid-line (abdo) to the right of a right leg.

Your YELLOW splodge (sheet) also jumps from left to right in relation to the right leg in both pics.

And if that is the right leg then the left hand/wrist is also now positioned to the right of the right leg.

You might be right but I can't see it that way myself. I'll have to look long and hard at what your interpretation. I think I can see where you're coming from but I need more convincing.

[Disco Stu]

Your yellow dot in MJK1 marks, to my mind, the opposite side of your question marked, "big pointy thing" in MJK2, in other words, the right leg. The PM transcript explains why the thigh and hip look nothing like a thigh or hip.

"The skin & tissues of the abdomen from the costal arch to the pubes were removed in three large flaps. The right thigh was denuded in front to the bone, the flap of skin, including the external organs of generation & part of the right buttock. The left thigh was stripped of skin, fascia & muscles as far as the knee. "

I've added markings to show my own thoughts on alignments. Apologies for the bad squiggles, I'm left handed this week after a parrot bit me.

The area marked as, "sheet", must be behind the leg, and elevated, to have avoided the blood flow from the abdomen. If the leg was resting on it, as appears in MJK1, it would surely have been as blood stained as the sheet below (or you have more evidence for movement). In my opinion, the leg looks flatter in MJK1 because of the higher camera angle: It's tempting to surmise that the angle for MJK2 was chosen specifically to show the gap between the knee and the bed. Certainly, the difference in height can be estimated by the table, which looks pillow height in MJK1, but level with the question mark in MJK2.