MJK1, MJK2 and moving body

[richardh]

Okay then, Let's concentrate ONLY on the knees in both pictures. If we can come to some sort of agreement as to the location of BOTH knees then I can adjust the 3D more accurately.

So below I have posted an image we'll call 'MJK_Knees'. Sorry if it's a bit too big but big is better so we can see what's going on.



There shouldn't be any debate regarding green, yellow and red dots. They are quite clearly shown in either or both photos.

What is up for debate is the big red question mark and the position of the left knee depicted by the red circle. I put the pink shade over where i think the bed clothes are in both photos. If the pink shade is right then I reckon the left knee in MJK2 is where the green circle is.

What I can't work out is that big pointy thing at the red question mark in MJK2. If it is the left knee then where is it on MJK1?

Also, the question mark point in MJK2 is MUCH higher than the left wrist. Whereas in MJK1 the question mark is considerably lower than the left wrist.

Also, The red circle of MJK1 (left knee) is very close to the bed mattress. In MJK2 I put the green circle where I think the left knee is and this is close to the mattress too. However if that red question mark is the knee in MJK2 then it is WAY off the mattress.

[Disco Stu]

The most likely answer, assuming it's the left leg, would be rigor. Even a morning death would have allowed enough time, by the time the door was eventually forced, for it to have long since set in, possibly even worn off.

The real issue would be using rigor to explain it in the case of a death the night before, given it apparently wears off after 12 hours. Probably best to prove it's the right leg before opening that can of worms. The PM transcript in Official Documents doesn't mention rigor at the time of examination.

[GUT]

I've got no real problem with the possibility that both Barnaby and Stu put forward that the right leg blocks the view of the left and the blankets are what look like the right leg, if that makes sense, but it really looks like a leg to me which would indicate some movement, but if so why is the other leg in the raised position?

[lynn cates]

grist

Hello Stu.

". . . it's great to see someone taking time to check things out."

Hear, hear. Grist for my mill.

Cheers.
LC

[Disco Stu]

It looks to me like sheeting is bunched behind the left leg in the larger picture which would obscure the view of the left leg in the smaller picture. Note the partially obscured left ankle. If that's the case, then the projections left leg in the smaller picture would in fact be the right, and in the same position as in the larger picture. I believe what you're seeing as the right leg in the smaller picture is the bunched blanket in the larger picture.

Rotating the projection to the left may help resolve if this is the case. Also, rotating the projection left on it's horizontal axis may be useful, as the position of the body is noted as being such, only the shoulder lying flat.

I'm not criticising, it's great to see someone taking time to check things out. If you can prove that the body was moved, it helps establish a time line for the initial examination. There's no reason to think the body wouldn't have been moved during the initial examination, especially if a rectal thermometer was used. The description in the PM report matches the larger photo, so any movement would suggest the examination had begun before the reverse angle photo(s) were taken, or that the position of the body was described from the photo.

[Barnaby]

Given the "up" position of the knee I would expect that, unless rigor was set, it would move when the bed was moved.

What thows me though is that in Post 1 it look to be the right knee raised in post 2 it's the left, or am I misunderstanding what I am seeing?

I'm having the same problem. It's clearly the right knee if the first picture and it sure looks like the left knee in the second, unless the computer animation is wrong. Can we actually see both legs in the second photo? If so, it looks like the knees have changed (consistent with the suggestion that the body was moved). If not, it could just be the angle that the right leg is blocking the left.

[GUT]

Given the "up" position of the knee I would expect that, unless rigor was set, it would move when the bed was moved.

What thows me though is that in Post 1 it look to be the right knee raised in post 2 it's the left, or am I misunderstanding what I am seeing?

[richardh]

I really do think that MJK's Legs and hips were rotated to the right for the MJK2 photo. In the first photo (MJK1) her left knee is close to the mattress yet in MJK2 it is quite high off the mattress.

I post below the image I made last year to demonstrate:



That IS the left knee I'm looking at isn't it (in MJK2)?

Can someone post MJK1 & 2 with dots where her left and right patella are please?

[GUT]

G'day Richard

I find it hard to imagine that in moving the bed the body wouldn't have moved to some degree, also we must factor in what lens [and indeed camera, though I suspect a 5x4 in both cases] was used, ie change in perspective may contribute to small anomalies.

[richardh]

Hi again,
I think these forums have established (or at least come to an agreement) that between the first photo of Kelly (MJK1) and the 2nd one (MJK2) the bed and side table were moved. MJK1 shows the scene as it was found, while MJK2 (and the missing others) shows MJK from the partition wall toward the door.

My question is; was Mary herself moved in any way while they were taking the MJK2 (and other) photos?

If you remember (on other threads) I was constructing some 3D representations of MJK and I felt that MJK's legs (or at least the right leg) had been moved to acquire MJK2.

I've revisited my 3D models and updated them. I now have what I think is an accurate 3D set up of MJK1. But Using that model and repositioning the camera to the MJK2 position I find than nothing lines up. I'm not even sure if I can get the camera to depict MJK on her own without repositioning her legs. WHich makes me think that MKJ's body (legs) was moved as they photographed the scene.

Does this image below look accurate?