MJK1, MJK2 and moving body

[Amanda Sumner]

Hi Disco Stu,

I'm all for the theory of the second angle shot, if the police felt that they wanted an all round view. However there is nothing similar between the two photos. Nothing is consistent. There would have been no point taking a photo of the other side of the body if everything had been changed and moved.

What would have been the point of that? Surely the point would have been to see the injuries on both sides, so why cover them up? None of it makes sense to me, and as for what's on the table....well something is certainly not right there.

That is a thumb. The hand does not belong to the body, if it is a body. The way the knee is raised looks more like a head under some cloth.

Putting the two photos side by side, tell me what is consist, what is exactly the same?

You ask why would they need to fake...well, the police had nothing to do with it so was it someone's idea of a sick joke? The press wanted to reenact it? I don't have the answers to that.

[Amanda Sumner]

G'day Amanda



And you know this as a fact, how?

The same way as you know it's a fact that it's MJK. You don't. I am pretty certain this is not even a body we are looking at. It is a mock up. Why is the hand put in that position? Very carelessly, too, if I may so.

[GUT]

The same way as you know it's a fact that it's MJK. You don't. I am pretty certain this is not even a body we are looking at. It is a mock up. Why is the hand put in that position? Very carelessly, too, if I may so.

But you see I haven't claimed to know with certainty that it is MJK, you on the other hand have said:

It is certainly not Mary Jane Kelly.

So that is merely your opinion, is that so?

[Amanda Sumner]

Regarding the little finger, does everyone know what a Styloid Process is, and where it occurs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styloid_process

[Amanda Sumner]

But you see I haven't claimed to know with certainty that it is MJK, you on the other hand have said:



So that is merely your opinion, is that so?

It is, but based on studying the photos and dealing with dead bodies on a regular basis at one time in my life. There is something not right about the whole thing. Of course I can't prove it but I am convinced I am right.

[GUT]

It is, but based on studying the photos and dealing with dead bodies on a regular basis at one time in my life. There is something not right about the whole thing. Of course I can't prove it but I am convinced I am right.

Yes you may be convinced, but can you convince anyone else?

[Amanda Sumner]

Yes you may be convinced, but can you convince anyone else?

Well, that is the reason why I wrote it. I am hoping that others will look and see what I am seeing.
I'm sure that there are some that will look at it again and agree, at least, that there is something very odd about the photo.
There is no doubt in my mind at all.

[Disco Stu]

Regarding the little finger, does everyone know what a Styloid Process is, and where it occurs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styloid_process

If you're happy to use Wikipedia, I'm happy to use Wikipedia. Given the subjective nature of debating how thick a little finger can be, I think something incontrovertible, such as the position of the Styloid Process would put that debate to rest. So, in MJK2 can we see the Styloid Process, and if so, where?

[Disco Stu]

Hi Disco Stu,

I'm all for the theory of the second angle shot, if the police felt that they wanted an all round view. However there is nothing similar between the two photos. Nothing is consistent. There would have been no point taking a photo of the other side of the body if everything had been changed and moved.

What would have been the point of that? Surely the point would have been to see the injuries on both sides, so why cover them up? None of it makes sense to me, and as for what's on the table....well something is certainly not right there.

That is a thumb. The hand does not belong to the body, if it is a body. The way the knee is raised looks more like a head under some cloth.

Putting the two photos side by side, tell me what is consist, what is exactly the same?

You ask why would they need to fake...well, the police had nothing to do with it so was it someone's idea of a sick joke? The press wanted to reenact it? I don't have the answers to that.

Hi Amanda

I can refer you to this thread for the common points of reference, as Richard, myself and others have been discussing them. If you'd like to go through the points that have been discussed, as objectively as possible, and indicate where you think we're going wrong, it would be quite useful to the discussion. I'll offer a short re-cap of my main points:

- Assuming the right leg is near-vertical in both shots, the 3d projection fits both, refuting the idea of the body being moved;

- If the right leg was resting on the sheeting, as appears in the full body shot, the sheeting would, by all likelihood, be heavily blood stained.

- The alignment of the hand is consistent;

- The Styloid Process is consistent with a left hand from what I can see;

- The position of the white fabric over the abdomen appears to be confirmed;

- The cut/garter line appears consistent;

- The exposed thigh bone is consistent;

This all points, as far as I can see, to a murder consistent with the suggestion put forward in the PM, and I don't see discrepancies in either photo when compared to the PM. I don't see evidence of the body being moved between photos.

[Disco Stu]

Hi Richard,

Sorry, this debate has taken us off topic. I did notice your thumb suggestion; thumbs seem to have become a theme for the day. I've got to say I'd be puzzled if the thumb was there, in line with the hip, as the right arm appears to be stretching to the far side of the bed in the full body shot. If we can prove it's the thumb, that would be strong evidence of movement. Can you get an arm length from the left and see where it would need to be to fit in the shot?

[richardh]

"Styloid Process is, and where it occurs?"

There are two Styloid proceses (I should know, I xray them every day). Lateral and medial Styloids - or put it another way, the wrist.

Re: The little finger / thumb - without a shadow of doubt the MJK2 images shows the little finger. I can see where people might think it's a thumb at first look, but it is CERTAINLY a little finger. even without the benefit of those 3D's you can see it's a little finger with a bit of shadow at the PIP joint giving the impression of a thumb joint.

EDIT
Also, If I was going to fake a photo, I would make damn certain things matched up with previous evidence. I wouldn't included smudges and brush mark touch-ups and I would line my 'body' up the way the autopsy report stated was the original position.

[Amanda Sumner]

Hi Amanda

I can refer you to this thread for the common points of reference, as Richard, myself and others have been discussing them. If you'd like to go through the points that have been discussed, as objectively as possible, and indicate where you think we're going wrong, it would be quite useful to the discussion. I'll offer a short re-cap of my main points:

- Assuming the right leg is near-vertical in both shots, the 3d projection fits both, refuting the idea of the body being moved;

- If the right leg was resting on the sheeting, as appears in the full body shot, the sheeting would, by all likelihood, be heavily blood stained.

- The alignment of the hand is consistent;

- The Styloid Process is consistent with a left hand from what I can see;

- The position of the white fabric over the abdomen appears to be confirmed;

- The cut/garter line appears consistent;

- The exposed thigh bone is consistent;

This all points, as far as I can see, to a murder consistent with the suggestion put forward in the PM, and I don't see discrepancies in either photo when compared to the PM. I don't see evidence of the body being moved between photos.

My first point I want to make, is that I am not here to offend. The second point I want to make is that you and Richard have done an excellent job. However your project has raised the very issues that I have raised and have yet to have a satisfactory answer to.
I am sorry if you feel that the thread has gone off topic. I believe it is very much on topic. It is about comparing the photos.
How you can say that the arm is consistent when the full body shot shows her arm to lie right across the top of the abdomen, but in the second one it's lying higher on the chest, further down the side of the bed, and yes, showing a thumb in my opinion.
The points raised on here and the diagram showing the discrepancies between the leg and hip positions, does show that, indeed, the hips have been rotated slightly. How would this happen? I can't imagine anyone present would want to particularly touch the body, especially if the whole point of the photograph was to record evidence.
Another point I would like to raise is rigor mortis. The body starts stiffening roughly 3 hours after death, sometimes a bit longer, but certainly after six hours the body is markedly stiff. Now, depending on when MJK died, but I think the general consensus is between the hours of 2.30.am and 4.00.am, her body would have been very stiff on discovery, and even more so by the time the door was broken down. It would have been nigh impossible to move any limbs at all without breaking the joints, so why would anyone do that? Any movement the body would have naturally made while the bed was moved would still be in a fixed position, even if shifted on the bed slightly.

There is no way the legs would raise like that without being held up, and as I said almost impossible to do. The furthest knee is also too high, in my opinion, to be a natural part of her body.
I am also of the opinion, and I will stretch my neck out further, by saying that what we are looking at is not a corpse at all. Why? Because if that had been a real body, it does not matter whose, there would have been no need to plant a false hand on one side and badly paint in another on the other side because the corpse would have had its own.

It does not matter either, if others disagree. I feel justified in raising these issues because isn't the evidence of MJK's suffering bad enough, in the original full body shot of her on the bed, without others making a mock up of her to hoax and deceive? I will leave others now to look and make up their own minds, if they haven't fixed them already.

I will stand firm with my opinion. Whatever it is, it's not a photograph of Mary Jane Kelly.

[Amanda Sumner]

Hi Disco Stu,

"The exposed thigh bone is consistent;"

Are we talking about the same photo? ( MJK3 ) The thigh is not exposed, it's covered with cloth. For some reason I can't put both photos side by side for comparison.
How can you say it's consistent when one can't even see it?
Why, also have you put the full bed shot of MJK again, on here, when we are clearly discussing the one taken on the other side of the bed?

[richardh]

Crap! this thread has got awfully messy and convoluted very quickly!

I've got some many things going on in my head that i need to put them in some sort of order before I put them in a thread.

Firstly (and quickly) the left hand in the partition-to-door image (MJK2) - you're looking at the prominent lateral styloid process (1) with certainty. The head of the metacarpal (knuckle)(2) of the little finger, then the pip joint (3) which from that point the little finger is bend DOWN into the abdomen which is why it vanishes and which is why it does look like the tip of the thumb (it isn't).

[richardh]

Hi Richard,

Sorry, this debate has taken us off topic. I did notice your thumb suggestion; thumbs seem to have become a theme for the day. I've got to say I'd be puzzled if the thumb was there, in line with the hip, as the right arm appears to be stretching to the far side of the bed in the full body shot. If we can prove it's the thumb, that would be strong evidence of movement. Can you get an arm length from the left and see where it would need to be to fit in the shot?

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Stu
Thanks for that post. You have made me re-examine my models because I can now see what you are saying about that right arm.
Firstly: if I can quote from the autopsy report:
"the right arm was slightly abducted from the body & rested on the mattress, the elbow bent & the forearm supine with the fingers clenched."

You said that it looks like the arm is 'stretched to the far side of the bed' and upon looking at it I would agree with you. SO I went and requisitioned my model to get this overlayed on MJK1:


and this on MJK2:


and this is the top down: