MJK1, MJK2 and moving body

[richardh]

Hi again,
I think these forums have established (or at least come to an agreement) that between the first photo of Kelly (MJK1) and the 2nd one (MJK2) the bed and side table were moved. MJK1 shows the scene as it was found, while MJK2 (and the missing others) shows MJK from the partition wall toward the door.

My question is; was Mary herself moved in any way while they were taking the MJK2 (and other) photos?

If you remember (on other threads) I was constructing some 3D representations of MJK and I felt that MJK's legs (or at least the right leg) had been moved to acquire MJK2.

I've revisited my 3D models and updated them. I now have what I think is an accurate 3D set up of MJK1. But Using that model and repositioning the camera to the MJK2 position I find than nothing lines up. I'm not even sure if I can get the camera to depict MJK on her own without repositioning her legs. WHich makes me think that MKJ's body (legs) was moved as they photographed the scene.

Does this image below look accurate?

[GUT]

G'day Richard

I find it hard to imagine that in moving the bed the body wouldn't have moved to some degree, also we must factor in what lens [and indeed camera, though I suspect a 5x4 in both cases] was used, ie change in perspective may contribute to small anomalies.

[richardh]

I really do think that MJK's Legs and hips were rotated to the right for the MJK2 photo. In the first photo (MJK1) her left knee is close to the mattress yet in MJK2 it is quite high off the mattress.

I post below the image I made last year to demonstrate:



That IS the left knee I'm looking at isn't it (in MJK2)?

Can someone post MJK1 & 2 with dots where her left and right patella are please?

[GUT]

Given the "up" position of the knee I would expect that, unless rigor was set, it would move when the bed was moved.

What thows me though is that in Post 1 it look to be the right knee raised in post 2 it's the left, or am I misunderstanding what I am seeing?

[Barnaby]

Given the "up" position of the knee I would expect that, unless rigor was set, it would move when the bed was moved.

What thows me though is that in Post 1 it look to be the right knee raised in post 2 it's the left, or am I misunderstanding what I am seeing?

I'm having the same problem. It's clearly the right knee if the first picture and it sure looks like the left knee in the second, unless the computer animation is wrong. Can we actually see both legs in the second photo? If so, it looks like the knees have changed (consistent with the suggestion that the body was moved). If not, it could just be the angle that the right leg is blocking the left.

[Disco Stu]

It looks to me like sheeting is bunched behind the left leg in the larger picture which would obscure the view of the left leg in the smaller picture. Note the partially obscured left ankle. If that's the case, then the projections left leg in the smaller picture would in fact be the right, and in the same position as in the larger picture. I believe what you're seeing as the right leg in the smaller picture is the bunched blanket in the larger picture.

Rotating the projection to the left may help resolve if this is the case. Also, rotating the projection left on it's horizontal axis may be useful, as the position of the body is noted as being such, only the shoulder lying flat.

I'm not criticising, it's great to see someone taking time to check things out. If you can prove that the body was moved, it helps establish a time line for the initial examination. There's no reason to think the body wouldn't have been moved during the initial examination, especially if a rectal thermometer was used. The description in the PM report matches the larger photo, so any movement would suggest the examination had begun before the reverse angle photo(s) were taken, or that the position of the body was described from the photo.

[lynn cates]

grist

Hello Stu.

". . . it's great to see someone taking time to check things out."

Hear, hear. Grist for my mill.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

I've got no real problem with the possibility that both Barnaby and Stu put forward that the right leg blocks the view of the left and the blankets are what look like the right leg, if that makes sense, but it really looks like a leg to me which would indicate some movement, but if so why is the other leg in the raised position?

[Disco Stu]

The most likely answer, assuming it's the left leg, would be rigor. Even a morning death would have allowed enough time, by the time the door was eventually forced, for it to have long since set in, possibly even worn off.

The real issue would be using rigor to explain it in the case of a death the night before, given it apparently wears off after 12 hours. Probably best to prove it's the right leg before opening that can of worms. The PM transcript in Official Documents doesn't mention rigor at the time of examination.

[richardh]

Okay then, Let's concentrate ONLY on the knees in both pictures. If we can come to some sort of agreement as to the location of BOTH knees then I can adjust the 3D more accurately.

So below I have posted an image we'll call 'MJK_Knees'. Sorry if it's a bit too big but big is better so we can see what's going on.



There shouldn't be any debate regarding green, yellow and red dots. They are quite clearly shown in either or both photos.

What is up for debate is the big red question mark and the position of the left knee depicted by the red circle. I put the pink shade over where i think the bed clothes are in both photos. If the pink shade is right then I reckon the left knee in MJK2 is where the green circle is.

What I can't work out is that big pointy thing at the red question mark in MJK2. If it is the left knee then where is it on MJK1?

Also, the question mark point in MJK2 is MUCH higher than the left wrist. Whereas in MJK1 the question mark is considerably lower than the left wrist.

Also, The red circle of MJK1 (left knee) is very close to the bed mattress. In MJK2 I put the green circle where I think the left knee is and this is close to the mattress too. However if that red question mark is the knee in MJK2 then it is WAY off the mattress.

[Disco Stu]

Your yellow dot in MJK1 marks, to my mind, the opposite side of your question marked, "big pointy thing" in MJK2, in other words, the right leg. The PM transcript explains why the thigh and hip look nothing like a thigh or hip.

"The skin & tissues of the abdomen from the costal arch to the pubes were removed in three large flaps. The right thigh was denuded in front to the bone, the flap of skin, including the external organs of generation & part of the right buttock. The left thigh was stripped of skin, fascia & muscles as far as the knee. "

I've added markings to show my own thoughts on alignments. Apologies for the bad squiggles, I'm left handed this week after a parrot bit me.

The area marked as, "sheet", must be behind the leg, and elevated, to have avoided the blood flow from the abdomen. If the leg was resting on it, as appears in MJK1, it would surely have been as blood stained as the sheet below (or you have more evidence for movement). In my opinion, the leg looks flatter in MJK1 because of the higher camera angle: It's tempting to surmise that the angle for MJK2 was chosen specifically to show the gap between the knee and the bed. Certainly, the difference in height can be estimated by the table, which looks pillow height in MJK1, but level with the question mark in MJK2.

[richardh]

Your blue splodge (exposed abdominal muscles)... How can it be to the right of the right leg in MJK2 ?

In MJK1 you have the blue splodge positioned to the left of the right leg (mid-line as would be expected given that the abdo is a mid-line structure) but in your MJK2 photo you have the blue splodge to the right of the right leg. You can't have a mid-line (abdo) to the right of a right leg.

Your YELLOW splodge (sheet) also jumps from left to right in relation to the right leg in both pics.

And if that is the right leg then the left hand/wrist is also now positioned to the right of the right leg.

You might be right but I can't see it that way myself. I'll have to look long and hard at what your interpretation. I think I can see where you're coming from but I need more convincing.

[Disco Stu]

The blue spots mark the general location; with it being a reverse angle in MJK1, it appears out of place, but imagine the exposed muscle is transparent in MJK1 and the spot indicates where I marked in MJK2. The description could have been better, let's add, "...and hip...", before muscles.

The yellow spot hasn't moved. My suggestion is that the area indicated, which looks to be immediately under the leg in MJK1, is actually behind (ie. to the right of the right leg). The precise location in MJK2 is hard to pinpoint due to the heavier shading from that angle. I've placed it where a glimpse of white is visible, but it's for convenience sake only: The precise spot may not be visible in MJK2 due to the camera angle.

I suppose the best analogy I can offer for the above is to photograph a man through a tunnel on a cloudy day. You can see him silhouetted in the far end, but without shadows to guide you, it's difficult to say if he's half way through the tunnel, at the entrance, or outside completely. In MJK2, taken from the other end of the tunnel as it were, the, "sheet", can now be seen to be not under the leg, as it no longer obscures the view under it.

Regarding the position of the left hand, the finger tips could well be in line with the right thigh. Assuming, as MJK2's perspective suggests, that the right leg was ~vertically elevated, not angled right as MJK1's perspective suggests, the hand needn't have moved.

[richardh]

Stu
Is this what you mean?



This layout was actually quite a bit easier to position because I kept MJK in the exact position as she is seen in MJK1. All I did was move the bed and table and stuck the camera on a something that would be about the same height as the big table might have been (or perhaps the washstand?)

This scenario allows for MJK's legs to remain in the same position as MJK1.

Also, note the door knob (if it IS the door knob?) in MJK2, and the door knob in my render. They are in corresponding locations. And that strip of brightness corresponds with the corner of the room between the door frame and the small window.

This scenario might be something to build on.

[richardh]

Forgot to add this .gif animation but I can't edit the above post now. Have to put it here. soz.