Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[Garry Wroe]

Kelly's murder might tell us more about our killer than any other of them she must have been very confident that he was just a harmless punter he must have looked and acted perfectly normal and he might well have been able to show her a larger than normal amount of money.

Unless he crept into her room whilst she was sleeping. If so, that would tell us even more about her killer.

[lynn cates]

"Didn't get repaid with scorn."

Hello Mr. B. Thanks for that. Couldn't resist.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

indoors/outdoors

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Are you saying that Mary would not have undressed for a client in the privacy of her own apartment?"

Possibly. But most likely through prior arrangement.

"I can see the old wham bam on the streets while the woman is clothed but would that be the norm in her apartment especially if she thought he might have more money than her usual customers?"

As I am sure you're aware, it was illegal indoors.

"I would also expect that undressing and being able to do the deed in the ladies' apartment would cost more than business conducted on the street. You get what you pay for in other words."

Indeed. But you have her awaking from sleep for this. That's what I'm on about.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

As I am sure you're aware, it was illegal indoors.

Hi Lynn.

Are you saying there were no brothels in London?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

As I am sure you're aware, it was illegal indoors.

As was soliciting outdoors to be fair...surely you're not suggesting it didn't happen?

But on the other hand whilst living off the proceeds of prostitution was (and is) illegal, is, or was, indoor prostutution a crime in itself?

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Whoops...crossed with Jon through being so slow...

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

How do we know that Mary was sleeping? Not everyone in bed is asleep and while alcohol can certainly put you to sleep it can also wake you up and prevent you from going back to sleep.

Do prostitutes keep regular hours? It would seem that finding a client is half the job and if one shows up at your door I would think that you would do your best to entertain them especially if Mary suspected that this might be someone she could get money from on occasion. Duty calls even if you have been awakened.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

I would doubt very much that Mary was sleeping, most women slept in their clothes, especially now as November has begun.

If we choose to argue that she may have been fully clothed, but that her killer undressed her, then why did he leave her chemise on?

Her attire speaks to me that she was sufficiently undressed to entertain a client, that is all. She was not caught asleep, the night was too cold to sleep in only a chemise, and she was not undressed by her killer. She undressed herself.
She was entertaining her killer.

[J6123]

I disagree, MrB. A crime of passion can also be impulsive and wild. Many a victim has been butchered by their ex-lover in such a manner. It could be that after the initial frenzy had died down, the killer decided to make his victim (rather clumsily) resemble the handiwork of the local Ripper at large and deflect any suspicion from himself. Suffice to say, if this was what happened, it worked like a treat.

Never really taken to the theory that Kelly was killed by a lover or an ex who then tried to disguise it as a Ripper murder. Would anybody kill their girlfriend or ex girlfriend in a frenzy of passion, and then coldly and rationally think....'oh, i better make this look like the ripper did it', and then spend the next hour systematically and ritualistically butchering the corpse? Not sure anybody would do that - UNLESS they already had a tendency to do that sort of thing. If she'd been killed in a domestic, and the killer wanted to disguise it as a Ripper murder, I doubt he would have gone that far with the mutilations.

[lynn cates]

brothels

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Are you saying there were no brothels in London?"

Not at all. There were MANY brothels--both female AND male. I am saying only that, with the new legislation, brothels were illegal and drove many prostitutes outdoors.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

solicitors

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"As was soliciting outdoors to be fair..."

Quite. But it seems to have been widely ignored.

". . . surely you're not suggesting it didn't happen?"

Not at all.

"But on the other hand whilst living off the proceeds of prostitution was (and is) illegal, is, or was, indoor prostutution a crime in itself?"

No, not a matter of geography; rather, the phrasing of the new law--which you seem aware of.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

maybe

Hello Jon.

"the night was too cold to sleep in only a chemise"

Likely. But, we cannot say this unequivocally, as:

1. Some are warm natured. (I NEVER sleep under anything--too warm.)

2. We are NOT certain it was night when she died.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thinking

Hello CD. Thanks.

"It would seem that finding a client is half the job and if one shows up at your door I would think that you would do your best to entertain them. . ."

What you or I THINK here is not relevant. We have no way of gauging this.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

ripper killing

Hello J. I tend to agree. To be frank, it did NOT look like a "ripper" killing.

Cheers.
LC

[Garry Wroe]

I would doubt very much that Mary was sleeping, most women slept in their clothes, especially now as November has begun.

If we choose to argue that she may have been fully clothed, but that her killer undressed her, then why did he leave her chemise on?

Her attire speaks to me that she was sufficiently undressed to entertain a client, that is all. She was not caught asleep, the night was too cold to sleep in only a chemise, and she was not undressed by her killer. She undressed herself.
She was entertaining her killer.

Really?

Kelly was 'very drunk' when she entered her room with Blotchy. It is more than possible that they consumed what remained of Blotchy's beer and then went to bed together. If Blotchy left at some point thereafter, let's say to go to work or return home to a wife or girlfriend, that would leave a drunken and chemise wearing Kelly alone and sleeping in the bed. The possibility then exists that the killer let himself into the room and attacked Kelly where she slept, which would explain the medical opinion that the throat was cut whilst Kelly lay close to the partition wall.

So there are other explanations, Jon. But then I suspect that you will reject these because of your insistence that Kelly returned to the streets after Blotchy departed the scene.