Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[lynn cates]

thinking

Hello Natasha.

"I'm not too sure where Chapman and Nichols fit, will need to research more about how they fit."

Hmm, let me think about that one. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

knew

Hello CD.

"I have never liked the theory of somebody reaching through the window and opening the door. Even if someone appeared to be sleeping there is always the possibility that they could wake up and scream."

This would apply to a stranger, but NOT to someone she knew.

Cheers.
LC

[Natasha]

Hello Natasha.

"I'm not too sure where Chapman and Nichols fit, will need to research more about how they fit."

Hmm, let me think about that one. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn

That does sound silly.

I meant I will research further about the killings of Chapman and Nichols ie: looking at the witness s, the suspects and the press etc more closely

[pinkmoon]

Hello CD.

"I have never liked the theory of somebody reaching through the window and opening the door. Even if someone appeared to be sleeping there is always the possibility that they could wake up and scream."

This would apply to a stranger, but NOT to someone she knew.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,Kelly's murderer must have looked normal or else she wouldn't have taken him into her room or let him into her room in the first place could it be that her killer offerd her a larger than normal sum of money?

[Sam Flynn]

"I have never liked the theory of somebody reaching through the window and opening the door. Even if someone appeared to be sleeping there is always the possibility that they could wake up and scream."

This would apply to a stranger, but NOT to someone she knew.

Not if she were startled, Lynn. I often jump out of my skin when a relative comes into the room when I'm fully conscious. Sadly, nobody creeps up to me in my sleep anymore, but - when it happens - I'll give you good odds that I'd react in a similar fashion.

[lynn cates]

P/A

Hello Natasha. Thanks.

Actually, I was thinking about my own theories/research on them. NOTHING to do with the others.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

naw

Hello Jason. Thanks.

Even so, I can't see her opening up early in the morning to a stranger. And from a sleep?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

reaction

Hello Gareth. Thanks.

I'm thinking about the usual start, but--ah! I know you.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.

"I believe it was because the person she admitted was both a client and her killer. I will leave it to you to figure out how the bed comes into it."

So, "MJK" was woken from a deep sleep for this? She opens the door after, "Yes, ducky?" "Let me in. Here for a quickie." "Right, just a second."

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

How do you know how deeply Mary was sleeping? And why wouldn't she open the door to a client if the visit had been prearranged? Standing just outside her door would be the answer to her rent problem. Seems natural to me that she would let him in.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello CD.

"I have never liked the theory of somebody reaching through the window and opening the door. Even if someone appeared to be sleeping there is always the possibility that they could wake up and scream."

This would apply to a stranger, but NOT to someone she knew.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I have to give you credit. You seem to know much more about women than me. I would think that a woman suddenly awakened from sleep and seeing an uninvited man in her room who might not be immediately identifiable might let out a scream. But that's just me.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

If the killer crept into Marys room, something that is highly improbable for a killer who chooses randomly and from women who are outside working, then you also need to explain how he got to cut her throat without making any sounds at all. No startled woman waking to a killer leaning over her, no thrashing about after the cut which would make the bed slide across the wood floor...waking Mrs Prater who testified she could hear such things from Marys room when they occurred, no noise like that was heard by anyone.

Since there is on record a very simple explanation for how the killer got into Marys room, and one that includes a very rational explanation for why she was awake at the time, is the cry heard by 2 courtyard witness...."oh-murder". The phrase was almost always used when emphasizing displeasure about something than it was to actually signal alert to a deadly altercation. "oh-murder, Ive lost a button"...oh-murder, Im late"..."oh-murder, Ive stepped in horse dung".

In this instance, since no following altercation noises were heard by Elizabeth Prater after hearing the faint call out, nor by Sarah Lewis who heard the same cry at the same time of night, a remarkably sensible answer emerges. Mary answered the door. She was dismayed to find that someone she knew showed up unannounced at almost 4 am, while she had been sleeping off too much booze. She exclaims "oh-murder", then turns and goes back to bed,... the right side of the bed, facing the wall. The man comes in, closes the door, waits until Mary dozes off again, and unknowingly until Mrs Prater does too...and he attacks her from behind bringing his left hand holding the knife under her chin while leaning over her. She doesn't stir when his weight is placed on the left side of the bed, because she left him that space when she rolled over.

Oh....and Diddles woke because the door below was knocked.

Makes perfect sense, explains and verifies the courtyard witnesses testimonies, and leaves you with one undeniable clue....IF that was the case then Mary had to have known the man intimately, and seemingly, not as a paying client on the streets.

No-one has to fumble around making pointless suggestions about whether he sneaked in an open window, or used the lost key, or why he would re-engage the lock when he leaves for the night.

How he got in could tell us almost everything we need to know to look for the guy, but I don't think that would have any bearing on the solvability of the other 5 Canonicals, because in this case the victim and killer would have know each other intimately.

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

I agree with most of your analysis but why would she have to know the caller intimately? Would she refuse entry to a paying customer that she knew?

c.d.

[pinkmoon]

Hello Jason. Thanks.

Even so, I can't see her opening up early in the morning to a stranger. And from a sleep?

Cheers.
LC

Perhaps her routine was so erratic that she would have done so can't see her turning a client away .

[Sam Flynn]

She was dismayed to find that someone she knew showed up unannounced at almost 4 am, while she had been sleeping off too much booze. She exclaims "oh-murder", then turns and goes back to bed...

Trouble with that is, a boozy-woozy "oh-murder" could scarcely have been noticeable to either Prater or Lewis. It must have been at least a mezzo-forte exclamation for the sound to carry in either direction. A sforzando utterance wouldn't have possessed the requisite energy.

[c.d.]

Hello Sam,

I always think of the TV show "GhostHunters" every time I read about the cry of Oh-Murder. On the show, they sometimes catch disembodied voices on tape. When they play if back it is often garbled and hard to understand what exactly is being said. But if they say to us it sounds like XYZ or whatever and they then play it back you find yourself saying yeah, it does sound like XYZ. In other words, the power of suggestion is at play. If Mary's neighbors simply heard an utterance and then found out she had been murdered, I can see them shaping things to fit the known facts.

Not saying that happened but I wouldn't rule it out.

c.d.