Alice Carroll, Mary Wilson, and Joe Barnett's Statement

[Debra A]

Hello GUT. It started when informants were perceived to be in danger.

Seems the new identities retained the same first name. So, for example, James Carey became "James Power."

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,
Using his mother's maiden name as his new surname was very unimaginative as well.

[lynn cates]

when

Hello Gut. Thanks.

OK, it was in place here--1882. I think it was used for a few in the uprisings in the late 60's. Before that, can't say.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

close shave

Hello Debs. Thanks.

Quite. But at least he had shaved his beard. Still, no matter.

Cheers.
LC

[MayBea]

But do you actually know when witness protection started in the UK?

The UK only implemented an official national witness protection program in 2012. Prior to that, local police administered informal protection.
In Ireland, it was in 2001 with Charles Bowden.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-20853072

For decades, witnesses threatened during Northern Ireland's Troubles have been given sanctuary in England.
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/...programme-2013

[MayBea]

[Bold mine] It has been proposed therefore that Mary Jane Wilson left her husband and two children in 1884, came to London from Liverpool, got pregnant by a lover in London, met and began living with Barnett while pregnant in April 1887 (and continued to live with him right up until the birth in October 1887) and then supposedly went to Liverpool to register the birth of her child, putting her husband's name of the birth certificate, having the child baptised... Then returning to Barnett in Whitechapel where she was murdered in 1888-Barnett keeping silent about the whole 1887 episode.

This is basically correct, Debra, except that the birth was registered in October 1887 and she reported the birthdate as September 1st.

-I might add that her husband could already have been terminally ill (he died of TB in 1890).
-Her then four year old daughter may have gone with her. (Her son was 10 or 11 in 1884).
-She did not have to be present at the baptism in December of 1887.

We had a show here called I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant. These gals only found out when they went into labour.

It's conceivable to me that Barnett was ignorant of the whole episode or chose to keep silent about another man's baby, or didn't say because he wasn't asked.

[GUT]

Thanks Lynn and MayBea.

I knew the UK wide scheme only started in 2012-13.

[markmorey5]

Mary Jane (or Ann) Kelly was somewhat taller than 5 foot 4 and we do know for a fact that she was rather tall, so that seems to rule out the theory. A few other things we know for certain about Mary Kelly are waist-length hair, probably red given her name of ginger, she had fair skin, she was buxom or busty and she had two false teeth. If you can get a more, specific description of Mary Wilson then you can see how that goes.

[Debra A]

Mary Jane (or Ann) Kelly was somewhat taller than 5 foot 4 and we do know for a fact that she was rather tall, so that seems to rule out the theory. A few other things we know for certain about Mary Kelly are waist-length hair, probably red given her name of ginger, she had fair skin, she was buxom or busty and she had two false teeth. If you can get a more, specific description of Mary Wilson then you can see how that goes.

Described in one paper as just prominent and hanging over the lip (buck) front teeth. Marie Lloyd always springs to mind when I read those couple of descriptions of MJK's teeth.

I believe the original Alice Carroll researcher/proposer of the relocation theory stated that Alice had red hair but the prison records differ in this detail.

Ann?

[Debra A]

At least one newspaper claims MJK was called Ginger specifically because she had red hair but I'm always puzzled by Maurice Lewis's description of MJK as being short, stout and dark. He seems to have known MJK as he mentioned he had seen MJK out drinking with Dan Barnett and 'Julia' the night before her death- that she had been drinking with his brother that night was confirmed by Barnett himself.

[MayBea]

...If you can get a more, specific description of Mary Wilson then you can see how that goes.

I only have a description of her daughter Christina and pictures of both sons.

Christina is said to have red hair.
http://genforum.genealogy.com/ironsi...sages/169.html

I think her son Robert Bruce looks like some of the sketches of Mary Kelly. The picture comes from his Merchant Marine ID.

[Brenda]

,

That chin surely does look like MJK's.

[MayBea]

Thanks, Brenda. I thought so too.

There is a Police News sketch of Mary with a cleft chin, and I think there might be a cleft in the crime scene photo.

Debra's reconstruction of Mary's face seems to have a cleft or dimple on a rounded chin.

[markmorey5]

At least one newspaper claims MJK was called Ginger specifically because she had red hair but I'm always puzzled by Maurice Lewis's description of MJK as being short, stout and dark. He seems to have known MJK as he mentioned he had seen MJK out drinking with Dan Barnett and 'Julia' the night before her death- that she had been drinking with his brother that night was confirmed by Barnett himself.

We know from the crime scene photos that Mary Kelly was not stout and we also have several accounts from several different people collected over a period of time verifying the generally accepted description of tall (5 foot 7) although some describe long, blonde hair (perhaps strawberry blonde like Nicole Kidman, whose hair colour can vary according to the light). Some think that the description 'stout' relates to buxom or busty in the modern iodiom, and some people at the time described Kelly as buxom.

Kelly was a common Irish surname and Mary a common Irish given name, so there were many Mary Kellys in the area at the time. I assume that Lewis, who saw Mary Kelly after she died, either knew a different Mary Kelly or made the whole thing up. The police at the time ignored his statement to the press.

[Debra A]

We know from the crime scene photos that Mary Kelly was not stout and we also have several accounts from several different people collected over a period of time verifying the generally accepted description of tall (5 foot 7) although some describe long, blonde hair (perhaps strawberry blonde like Nicole Kidman, whose hair colour can vary according to the light). Some think that the description 'stout' relates to buxom or busty in the modern iodiom, and some people at the time described Kelly as buxom.

Kelly was a common Irish surname and Mary a common Irish given name, so there were many Mary Kellys in the area at the time. I assume that Lewis, who saw Mary Kelly after she died, either knew a different Mary Kelly or made the whole thing up. The police at the time ignored his statement to the press.

Yes-we all know all this. I was talking about Maurice Lewis's specific mention that he saw MJK the night before her death, drinking with Dan Barnett and Julia. Joseph Barnett himself confirmed this was correct-that MJK had been drinking with his brother.

[Debra A]

Thanks, Brenda. I thought so too.

There is a Police News sketch of Mary with a cleft chin, and I think there might be a cleft in the crime scene photo.

Debra's reconstruction of Mary's face seems to have a cleft or dimple on a rounded chin.

That's a blast from he past!-the picture should be landscape, I meant her to be laying on the left cheek. It was more to show positioning of her head as I saw it in relation to her hairline and nothing to do with actual features of her face-which were obliterated. Making assumptions about the size of MJK's chin would be a mistake IMHO-all we see in that photograph apart from the hairline and postition of her ear is a mangled mass of flesh, especially around the area where there would have been chin definition.