A New Theory

[c.d.]

I believe the weather was rainy that night or at least a drizzle. What if she had gone out earlier and her clothes were damp? That might have been a factor in how intensely the clothes burned.
c.d.

[Geddy2112]

Literally blowing on the old coals of this thread to see if it will get going again with this question? Do we have any idea how big the fire grate was in no.13? Somehow I always saw it as big as clothes etc were put on it but after reading through this thread it could have been rather small. If so logistically how were those clothes burn without the fire spreading out of the grate?

Did Jack cut/tear up the clothes into smaller pieces?

[Losmandris]

Literally blowing on the old coals of this thread to see if it will get going again with this question? Do we have any idea how big the fire grate was in no.13? Somehow I always saw it as big as clothes etc were put on it but after reading through this thread it could have been rather small. If so logistically how were those clothes burn without the fire spreading out of the grate?

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Jason!

Yes, that's the case!

And yet she kept herself as "The Gal With No Name". Even Joe Barnett didn't know about the letter she got from Ireland. Obviously shen burnt in in the fireplace...

Anna, a longtime-drunkard can be sometimes suprisingly punctual! But the main thing; your thought is as good as any. But likely, had that been the plan, obviously some of the would have talked something sooner or later... They were friends of Bacchus too, you know!

All the best
Jukka

[jason_c]

The way I see it - and I'm just projecting myself into her position here - but Mary would have been very protective of her home ie what was hers. She knew what kind of life a homeless prostitute led. I can't see her jeopardising that by bringing her work home. I still struggle with the idea of Jack casing the place but perhaps if it was late, she had a ground floor flat with no security and he was walking by - saw her passed out on her bed, he broke in and somehow avoided detection. Still if this was the case, he was taking a hell of a risk. But maybe if the guy had been living there before (and I don't necessarily mean Barnett), people thought his presence was normal and ignored it?

Sasha, Mary Kelly was an alcoholic. Keeping clients out of her home would not have been her top priority in my opinion. She had done a runner with Barnett from her previous residence. She was losing keys, smashing windows, allowing others to use her room, and was in arrears with her rent. This does not sound like a person overly concerned with her privacy or as someone who views 13 Millers Court as her long term living quarters.

Her room was just as likely to have been a place where she had a bed and could keep relatively warm. This "Englishwoman's" home was not her castle.

[anna]

Hi all,
People who are as drunk as Mary is supposed to have been do not fold their clothes neatly at the bottom of their bed...they throw them off and lay back and go to sleep where they land!
Just from general coming and goings day to day,people must have seen the users of Room 13 apply the window trick...somebody reaching through an open window must surely catch the eye of people around...yet nobody at all tells the police of this method?
Something else.. Mary is drinking with Julia and Danny on the evening of her murder...if this Danny be Daniel Barnett and Joe is Mary's murderer,it would explain how he knows Mary is alone in the room....he has a lookout to signal from Julia's window when the coast is clear.Danny could also ensure Mary is drunk enough to be an easier target for Joe,than the fiery opponant she was when they had fought previously.
Just a thought that ocurred to me,probably wrong, but I'll throw it into the mix anyway.

[c.d.]

Hi Sasha,

Keep in mind that in order to protect her home, Mary had to pay her rent which was in arrears. She no longer could count on financial support from Barnett. By offering a customer a room with a bed, she could charge more money than she could by servicing customers in the street.

c.d.

[Sasha]

The way I see it - and I'm just projecting myself into her position here - but Mary would have been very protective of her home ie what was hers. She knew what kind of life a homeless prostitute led. I can't see her jeopardising that by bringing her work home. I still struggle with the idea of Jack casing the place but perhaps if it was late, she had a ground floor flat with no security and he was walking by - saw her passed out on her bed, he broke in and somehow avoided detection. Still if this was the case, he was taking a hell of a risk. But maybe if the guy had been living there before (and I don't necessarily mean Barnett), people thought his presence was normal and ignored it?

[c.d.]

I have a similar theory myself.

Considering how late at night it was and the weather, I believe it likely that Kelly was watching out for clients under the archway entrance to Millers Court. She was standing there as JtR walked past travelling through Dorset Street. Sam Flynn mentioned once that Prater had done the same thing that very night. We see prostitutes using similar behaviour in places like Amsterdam today - except instead of an archway they use windows in brothels.

Hi Jason,

Yes, your theory makes a lot of sense too. It would appear that we now have three theories:
1. Mary's killer came to her room;
2. Mary went out in the street to solicit business;
3. Mary looked out her door or stood in the archway and saw Jack and invited him in.

It is interesting that theory three helps resolve some of the differences between the other theories.

c.d.

[Celesta]

That's a very interesting theory.Maybe McCarthy was acting as a sort of pimp taking a cut of everything they earned?

Good one

Hi Belinda,

I wonder if this was why he let her go so long without paying the rent. She was working it off? I.E. he was already taking a cut of her earnings, as you suggest.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Richard,

If you remember it has been documented that her ex landlady mentioned that not long before her death she brought a strange man to her door

...the landlady (Mrs Carthy of Breezer's Hill) actually stated that this incident had occurred "some short time ago" - now, that's not quite the same as saying "not long before her death". Given that just under two years had elapsed since Kelly had lodged with Mrs Carthy, what her ex-landlady preceived as "some short time ago" might have represented a matter of a few, or even several, months.

[detective abberline]

Hi Detective Abberline,
You ask the question 'Did Mjk bring men back to room 13 the weeks leading up to her death?
Three different opinions here.
Mrs Cox told her neice 'She [ kelly] was always bringing men back to her room, mostly sailors, with a bottle of gin under her arm'.
My reaction....if that was the case it could only have been since october 30 when Barnett left, and some of those nights were spent with her sleepovers, Mrs Harvey etc..
Another witness stated[ name escapes me] 'It was not her custom to invite men back'
My reaction... I believe that.
If you remember it has been documented that her ex landlady mentioned that not long before her death she brought a strange man to her door and asked if they could spent the night.
My reaction... that would indicate that Mrs Coxs observations were false, and for some reason on the eve of her death Mary had major reasons for her change of habit..
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard. I agree with your 1st 2 points. The last I'm not too certain about. Can you be more specific?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Detective Abberline,
You ask the question 'Did Mjk bring men back to room 13 the weeks leading up to her death?
Three different opinions here.
Mrs Cox told her neice 'She [ kelly] was always bringing men back to her room, mostly sailors, with a bottle of gin under her arm'.
My reaction....if that was the case it could only have been since october 30 when Barnett left, and some of those nights were spent with her sleepovers, Mrs Harvey etc..
Another witness stated[ name escapes me] 'It was not her custom to invite men back'
My reaction... I believe that.
If you remember it has been documented that her ex landlady mentioned that not long before her death she brought a strange man to her door and asked if they could spent the night.
My reaction... that would indicate that Mrs Coxs observations were false, and for some reason on the eve of her death Mary had major reasons for her change of habit..
Regards Richard.

[jason_c]

I was reading the Kelly inquest transcripts and was struck by the fact that Millers Court, although not a brothel per se, seemed to have its fair share of prostitutes. If Jack became aware of this, say by overhearing a conversation in a pub or some other means, perhaps he was scouting Millers Court that night. Could he have been seen by Mary looking through her window? Or she might have opened her door to check the weather before venturing out. Realizing that he is a customer, she invites him in. This could explain a number of things such as:

1. Why none of her neighbors hears her dressing and making preparations to go out.
2. Why she is in a chemise. She fell asleep wearing it after entertaining Blotchy Face.
3. Why she would bring a stanger back to her room. It would make no sense for her to get dressed to go out to service Jack when he was right there.
4. Why her clothes were not wet.

It's just a theory...what do you think?

c.d.

I have a similar theory myself.

Considering how late at night it was and the weather, I believe it likely that Kelly was watching out for clients under the archway entrance to Millers Court. She was standing there as JtR walked past travelling through Dorset Street. Sam Flynn mentioned once that Prater had done the same thing that very night. We see prostitutes using similar behaviour in places like Amsterdam today - except instead of an archway they use windows in brothels.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Anna,
You make a valid point regarding the broken window, and not let us forget the missing key...
I cant understand why McCarthy didnt replace the window panes, and insist the couple paid him back or else..... along with the arrears that were accumulating, also I find it hard to accept that the landlord did not have a spare key to the room[ he obvious did not].
I would loved to have known what the argument was about , that resulted in Mjk pushing Barnett into the window, I would have imagined raised voices would have been evident before the physical element transpired.
Marys attitude towards Joe appears to have been on a downhill slope during that autumn'I cant bear the man' followed by 'but hes been good to me; seems to indicate that all was far from well.
Regards Richard.