A New Theory

[detective abberline]

detective abberline,
I'd have said with Kelly being nervous whenever Barnett read the newspaper reports to her,she had a definate sense of self-preservation.Just adopts the acceptance we have seen shown before that what is coming,is coming.
Perhaps it is to do with the time,area they live in,etc....
I don't think you do them justice,from what I have read they were all quite intelligent enough to know danger when they saw it. Wish they'd have acted
better and got themselves armed with a bit of broken glass,anything....
but then what would we have to discuss,diddly-squat!!!

Hi Anna. Who said that Barnett could read? If she had a sense of self preservation then she wouldn't have asked Jack back to her squalid little room. Although, to be fair, I don't know if she had been doing that in the preceding weeks while Jack was busy. Now that's an intriguing idea. I wonder if anyone has ever done any research as to whether MJK was out prowling the streets or bringing customers back to that horrid little room in the weeks preceding her murder.

[anna]

detective abberline,
I'd have said with Kelly being nervous whenever Barnett read the newspaper reports to her,she had a definate sense of self-preservation.Just adopts the acceptance we have seen shown before that what is coming,is coming.
Perhaps it is to do with the time,area they live in,etc....
I don't think you do them justice,from what I have read they were all quite intelligent enough to know danger when they saw it. Wish they'd have acted
better and got themselves armed with a bit of broken glass,anything....
but then what would we have to discuss,diddly-squat!!!

[anna]

Hi everyone,
I presume McCarthy was aware Mary's window was broken.Must have been one hum-dinger of an arguement and with breaking glass along for extra dramatic effect...can't have been many who hadn't missed or heard of it!!
Drew attention to the room,and the fact that the window remained an entry point into the room,must have been people who saw Joe or Mary put their hand through on occasion and also people pull the curtain aside to have a quick chat or to see if they were in (Bowyer had no problem doing this).
Knowing that anyone could gain entry to his property while they were out,and knowing that most had to find money for a bed for the night,isn't it strange that nobody attempts to secure the room?
Especially McCarthy,who is quick enough to do so after the event.Wouldn't have taken him a minute to nip round and do the job on his property,whether the occupants wanted him to do so or not.
As for the new theory...I feel Mary was his target on purpose and there was no chance meeting....for me,she definitely knew she had it coming,but like the others,for some reason,doesn't arm herself,but accepts Jack's on his way.

[detective abberline]

Hi. I agree with most of your posts. But if the area was on high alert it didn't stop Jack when he perpetrated his double event. I have difficulty believing Kelly wouldn't have agreed to it against a fence if the price was right. Jack stopped because he either: a)was incarcerated b) died c) emigrated in which case you'd expect a psycho like him to start up again. I think you're wrong gifting these East End prossies with a prescient sense of self preservation. They lived in a cesspool and did what they had to to survive. They knew the risks but had to walk.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Jeff!

If MJK was the height of his "work", he felt he couldn't go any further?!

All the best
Jukka

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jukka and Sasha

Yes I think thats a fair point. The whole area had been on heightened allert, which must have made things more difficult for Jack.

Jacks also an opportunist. He meets the girls and they take him to the murder site. So perhaps a combination of non availability of other victims and Mary's sense of safer location, choose Millers Court as his location.

Its always been my personal belief that jack shows Signs of a developing M.O. and that he learns from his experience.

So why stop after MJK when he learns success?

Either he throws himself in the thames or the psychotic attacks stop?

Nice talking

Jeff

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Sasha!

Yes, it's very possible, that MJK was the one JtR had been looking for all the time!

But how about this, from Mary's side anyway:

She thought herself to be safe, because she thought The Ripper to strike outdoors?!

The Ripper could have changed his tactics because of this general thinking...

All the best
Jukka

[Sasha]

Hi Sasha

I'm having a quick scive from editing so I'll attempt to answer some of your questions.

We know that MJK first got into prostitution from the evidence given by Joe Barnet. Her Husband was meant to have been killed in a mining accident so she went to live with a cousin in Cardiff, where she was first introduced to prostitution. She moved to London and may have worked in quite high class brothels. We know from other witnesses she may have travelled to France to become a prostitute but returned quickly..this was known as the procurement trade. She lived with another woman probably a madame before living with two other men..Morgonstone then flemming...she met Joe and soon moved in with him...

Joe didnt like her trade and it appears she stopped for a while, he lost his job and she was forced to return to the streets, they slit up a few weeks before she was killed.

All the other victims lived in common lodging houses..its worth finding out how these worked and the poor conditions they were forced to live in..

They would need to earn 3d for a bed for the night..

Most had had families and children and were separated. They had drink problems. Kate and Annie were both dieing.

It ws a very hard and tough life...poor meant they had next to nothing..

Hope this helps, its off the top of my head..try the FACTS by Paul Begg..

Yours Jeff

Thanks Jeff. That's my understanding of the victims as well. Again this for me sets Mary apart from the others as victims. The other victims could be more like random attacks whereas Mary would need to be more planned (ie how would he get into her home in the middle of the night and safely evade detection). This suggests to me a level of organisation and logical thinking that seems to run contrary to a serial killer who is becoming increasingly desperate, disorganised etc. Much easier surely to pick a woman on the street in a dark alley? Just some thoughts ...

Sasha

[Graham]

Has anyone ever considered that Joe Barnett claimed he tried to talk MJK out of going on the game because he was concerned he might be accused by the police of living off immoral earnings? That was considered almost as heinous offence as prostitution itself, if not more so.

I do not trust this Joe Barnett who sometimes comes across as being slightly too good to be true...but I don't think he killed her.

Cheers,

Graham

[Jeff Leahy]

Dumb question I s'pose but here it is. Do we know if MJK regularly saw clients in her room or is this a post Barnett phenomenon? What about the other victims? I am assuming they were more or less homeless or had some other reason for not working from home or maybe they wanted to keep their home and professional lives separate?

Hi Sasha

I'm having a quick scive from editing so I'll attempt to answer some of your questions.

We know that MJK first got into prostitution from the evidence given by Joe Barnet. Her Husband was meant to have been killed in a mining accident so she went to live with a cousin in Cardiff, where she was first introduced to prostitution. She moved to London and may have worked in quite high class brothels. We know from other witnesses she may have travelled to France to become a prostitute but returned quickly..this was known as the procurement trade. She lived with another woman probably a madame before living with two other men..Morgonstone then flemming...she met Joe and soon moved in with him...

Joe didnt like her trade and it appears she stopped for a while, he lost his job and she was forced to return to the streets, they slit up a few weeks before she was killed.

All the other victims lived in common lodging houses..its worth finding out how these worked and the poor conditions they were forced to live in..

They would need to earn 3d for a bed for the night..

Most had had families and children and were separated. They had drink problems. Kate and Annie were both dieing.

It ws a very hard and tough life...poor meant they had next to nothing..

Hope this helps, its off the top of my head..try the FACTS by Paul Begg..

Yours Jeff

[Sasha]

Dumb question I s'pose but here it is. Do we know if MJK regularly saw clients in her room or is this a post Barnett phenomenon? What about the other victims? I am assuming they were more or less homeless or had some other reason for not working from home or maybe they wanted to keep their home and professional lives separate?

[Chava]

That's a very interesting theory.Maybe McCarthy was acting as a sort of pimp taking a cut of everything they earned?

That's certainly a widely-held belief, and one that I subscribe to.

Getting back to the fire, now that I live in a Victorian house with a coal fire which we (carefully) use in the winter, I'm struck by how that fire got to be so fierce and so hot without burning the whole place down. Those coal grates are small. If you put too much in there it can get nasty very quickly, and the chimney sweep who checked the thing out before we used it pointed that out in no uncertain terms. I once put one too many firelogs on by accident and had to get it out really fast.

But there was tons of stuff burnt in that grate--cloth, paper, what-have-you. So I think it could only have been burnt carefully and over a long period of time. It's therefore possible, to me, that Kelly herself burnt that material.

[belinda]

That's a very interesting theory.Maybe McCarthy was acting as a sort of pimp taking a cut of everything they earned?

Good one

[Celesta]

According to Thomas Bowyer (see P. 411 in JTR Companion/Sourcebook, or his testimony in the inquest) there was a curtain over the window, and he had to pull the curtain aside to see in, the morning he discovered her. So is there a reason to assume that JTR could just stare into her window? Perhaps he was in the Court and saw the curtain ripple due to a gust of wind or something, or for some it caught his eye. Knowing prostitutes lived in the Court, perhaps he chanced a peak and saw a lone woman lying on the bed.

Antonio, Welcome to the Casebook.

[c.d.]

Hi Antonio,

Welcome to the boards. Visiting a brothel would most likely result in witnesses who could identify him so I don't think that was ever a viable option. I also think that Jack was willing to take some risks if he could have uninterrupted time to be with his victim. As to Mary's age, my personal opinion is that that was not a factor in her being selected, it was simply that she had a room of her own.

c.d.