Was Millers court being watched by the police

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
If one reads between the lines from an article in The Daily Mail April 30th 1930, one can get a distinct impression that Millers Court was being watched on the night of the 8th November 1888.
According to the paper, a plain clothes detective was positioned close by to the entrance to a court[ which the police believed was a possible location] on the night of the murder .
It states there was only one entrance, and it was a court, which eliminates all of the others, also states that months passed between that occasion and Castle Alley which again gives us a major clue that Millers court was the location being staked out..
The plain clothes officer that was in attendance claimed to have seen nothing, or heard nothing , which suggests that either.
The Officer was lying , possibly because he was concerned for his safety , on tackling a knife welding maniac.
Or we have the distinct possibility that the reason he never saw, or heard nothing unusual , was because Mary Kelly was alive and well throughout the time he was on duty, making it more likely she met her death in the daylight hours.
This surely is another notch for those believers[ I included] who maintain that she was killed around 9,am .
It surely would also please many members of Casebook who believe George Hutchinson was either mistaken on day , or telling lies, for if a officer was on duty , he could not have failed to have seen Mary, and Mr A, enter the court or for that matter Hutchinson loitering close by...
I may have to denounce many years of a solid belief in that guy, but If it gives more credence to a morning murder then so be it.
Regards Richard.

[Fisherman]

Hi,
If one reads between the lines from an article in The Daily Mail April 30th 1930, one can get a distinct impression that Millers Court was being watched on the night of the 8th November 1888.

It surely would also please many members of Casebook who believe George Hutchinson was either mistaken on day , or telling lies, for if a officer was on duty , he could not have failed to have seen Mary, and Mr A, enter the court or for that matter Hutchinson loitering close by...

Hi Richard!

IF there had been a PC watching the court, then how did Hutchinsons story get dismissed? They would have known that he was telling the exact truth, since they would have seen Astrakhan themselves, spats and all.
Similarly, if they knew that Hutch was not there or that A man was never around - why then did Abberline believe Hutchinsons story?

The best,
Fisherman

[richardnunweek]

Hi Fisherman,
If a Police officer was watching Millers court, and he was doing his duty, not elsewhere, then he would have seen George Hutchinson, and Mary Kelly , and Mr A.
But it seems he did not .
If he had witnessed what Hutchinson claimed to have seen, he obviously did not repeat it to his superiors, for reasons better known to himself.
Or maybe he did see , but dismissed the observation, thinking it was non important, he could hardly go back on that report when the body was discovered.
The police also appeared to have a belief, that the officer may have seen something and failed to report it because he lacked courage in investigating.
Maybe this was considered a possibility after Hutchinson's visit on the Monday.
It could well be that this officer who left the force shortly after?, did indeed fail his duty.
Or there again maybe he was spot on, he saw nothing .
In which case Hutchinson was fabricating.
It is conceivable that Mrs Lewis saw the officer standing watching the court, and he was not as people believe GH.
One could also speculate that Hutchinson was walking in the area as he was to late to gain admittance to his lodgings, and may have thought about trying his luck at Mary's, but saw the man standing opposite looking at the court, and had second thoughts.
He had no idea that this was a police officer, and used this person as himself in his tale.
Abberline may have initially believed Hutchinson, because he lacked faith in the officer, but that possibility soon faded, and his account was dismissed.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

I think the more likely explanation is that the account, being 42 years later, is a confusion of details from more than one murder.
There were enough tenants in and around Millers Court to know if they had a stranger (policeman?) loitering around on that particular night.

[The Good Michael]

I think the more likely explanation is that the account, being 42 years later, is a confusion of details from more than one murder.
There were enough tenants in and around Millers Court to know if they had a stranger (policeman?) loitering around on that particular night.

Absolutely. An amalgamation of nonsense.

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Richard and all,

According to 'Murder Mag', who I think may have been Margaret German, friend to Polly Nichols, a policeman was in Miller's Court that night. I don't know what Mag's source for this might have been, but she appears to have become somewhat obsessed with the murders, would sleep overnight in some of the murder locales, and no doubt asked a lot of questions. But it was a very small court, so if an undercover officer was there that night, either he was George Hutchinson or he was there prior to Hutch, because neither saw each other.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Dr. John Watson]

. . .The plain clothes officer that was in attendance claimed to have seen nothing, or heard nothing , which suggests that . . . the Officer was lying , possibly because he was concerned for his safety , on tackling a knife welding maniac.
Regards Richard.

I've long suspected that Edward Watkins, the City PC who discovered Eddowes' body in Mitre Square, came upon the Ripper in the act of carving her up and fled to the warehouse for help rather than risk tangling with a knife-wielding killer. The times given for Jack and Eddowes entering the square and Watkins entering off Mitre Street at least strongly suggest such a scenerio. Whether Watkins lied about the encounter or his superiors covered for him to avoid embarrassment is debatable. No proof this happened, of course, unless you believe the Commissioner's later comment referring to the "City PC" as being the only reliable witness who saw the Ripper. Was this a mere slip of the tongue - or did the truth slip out?

John

[c.d.]

The obvious question seems to be why would the police be watching Miller's Court? With so much prostitution going on in Whitechapel it is hard to believe that the police with their limited man power would try to guess where the killer might strike next.

c.d.

[Graham]

Thomas Bowyer stated that on the Wednesday prior to Mary Kelly's murder he saw her in Miller's Court talking to a very smartly dressed young man of about 27 or 28, with 'very white cuffs' and a 'dark moustache'. Before the hair-splitters point out that this is prior to the night of the murder, such a gent must have been a rarity in a dump like Miller's Court. At the time, the police had things on their minds other than the Ripper, and much time and man-power was being expended regarding the activities of the Fenians. Assuming that Mary Kelly was Irish and not Welsh, then - just a suggestion, guys - perhaps the smart young man may have been a detective asking a few pertinent questions and sounding out one or two people in the neighbourhood.

I have a very vague memory that on the pre-crash Forum it was seriously suggested (and not by Karen Trenouth, as far as I can remember) that whoever the woman we know as Mary Kelly actually was, that she possibly had some kind of tie-in with the Fenians, and would therefore be of some passing interest to the police. Very sorry, can't enlarge upon this, but maybe some other greybeard who remembers the old Forum can.

Graham

[pinkmoon]

I've long suspected that Edward Watkins, the City PC who discovered Eddowes' body in Mitre Square, came upon the Ripper in the act of carving her up and fled to the warehouse for help rather than risk tangling with a knife-wielding killer. The times given for Jack and Eddowes entering the square and Watkins entering off Mitre Street at least strongly suggest such a scenerio. Whether Watkins lied about the encounter or his superiors covered for him to avoid embarrassment is debatable. No proof this happened, of course, unless you believe the Commissioner's later comment referring to the "City PC" as being the only reliable witness who saw the Ripper. Was this a mere slip of the tongue - or did the truth slip out?

John

I have always thought that our killer was seen by somebody during his grisly work I don't personally think a policeman saw him but maybe another prostitute with a punter perhaps .

[Scott Nelson]

I seem to recall that it was suggested this man could have been Henry Johnston, or "Jonto", possibly her brother.

[Graham]

I seem to recall that it was suggested this man could have been Henry Johnston, or "Jonto", possibly her brother.

Hmmm....never come across that before. Johnston is a Scots name anyway.
Could've been Maybrick....he doubtless had nice white cuffs.

Graham

[pinkmoon]

Hmmm....never come across that before. Johnston is a Scots name anyway.
Could've been Maybrick....he doubtless had nice white cuffs.

Graham

Don't forget druitt as well .

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys,
Just suppose the London police had knowledge of the 14. Dorset street letter sent to Yarmouth police a week previous.
It could then be conceivable that the address, which was opposite Millers court might have triggered alarm bells, especially if they had figured out the killers pattern of dates.
Regards Richard.

[nicole]

Hi all,

I am of the opinion that any notion regarding a policeman staking out Millers Court is pure nonsense!!! Sure, hasn't it always been stated the "Dorset Street is the meanest street in London and the police would only dare patrol it in pairs and never at night."

If any stranger were there for any length of time, he would have been immediately detected.

Nicole