Was Mrs Maxwell lying

[pinkmoon]

no real mystery

People have been known to get themselves involved in serious criminal cases just for the attention or could she have thought there might have been some money to make out of this?I think over the years some people have made such a fuss over little details in this famous case to the point of been blinded to simple logic

[richardnunweek]

Hi Pinkmoon,
I would hardly call coming forward, and stating that she saw a murder victim some four hours after she was presumed dead a little detail.
I agree that over the years many a person has involved themselves into a case with untruths, but usually as a result of trying to protect someone.
Giving someone an alibi, is the usual reason.
Mrs Maxwell had a reputation of being a level headed woman, and at least outwardly respectable, and it would appear that [ at least according to the police] she was either mistaken on identity, or date.
This may simply be the case..but I am talking about a possible other motive.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

Mrs Maxwell had a reputation of being a level headed woman, and at least outwardly respectable, and it would appear that [ at least according to the police] she was either mistaken on identity, or date.

Error as to date must be somewhat discarded for two reasons; Maxwell saw 'Kelly' the same day as she told the police and; her trip to the milk shop was confirmed by the shop owner. And she didn't go every day.

[pinkmoon]

Hi Pinkmoon,
I would hardly call coming forward, and stating that she saw a murder victim some four hours after she was presumed dead a little detail.
I agree that over the years many a person has involved themselves into a case with untruths, but usually as a result of trying to protect someone.
Giving someone an alibi, is the usual reason.
Mrs Maxwell had a reputation of being a level headed woman, and at least outwardly respectable, and it would appear that [ at least according to the police] she was either mistaken on identity, or date.
This may simply be the case..but I am talking about a possible other motive.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard ,a simple mistake or a deliberate attempt to lie to police we will never know but some people do come forward with bogus info just to get themselves involved in serious crime cases.The press were throwing money about at the time to some so called witnesses I remember reading in Philip sugdens excellent book that Mrs long who saw Annie Chapman just before her demise admitted years later she received a fair amount of money from the press.

[lynn cates]

acute

Hello Jon. An acute observation.

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi Lynn.
That acute observation has been with me since day one..
I am going to offer an explanation that most likely belongs in a Tales of mystery section.
We have Mrs Maxwell aware of a gristly murder during the night from someone she personally knows, she appreciates that this person has no alibi for that time period, and she puts forward a plan to assist the culprit.
She knows that she would be very aware when the body was discovered, [ like everyone else in the street] and attempts to gain a verification of her movements by devising a plan for a certain time period.
She assumes the body had not yet been discovered around 815 so she goes on her milk errand, and upon returning around 845 , she realizes that still no body was evident, so she arms herself with a story of not only seeing Kelly , but also talking to her, at a time she was confident it could not be proven otherwise,
After the body was discovered she is then free to offer her sighting,despite possible medical disputes.which at the very least would confuse the police...which at least initially did according to the Times Nov 12th.
I do appreciate the whole scenario is ''far fetched'', but desperate people do irrational acts..
Regards Richard.

[sdreid]

I don't know how savvy Maxwell was but she seemed relatively intelligent. She would surly know that presenting an alibi before you actually need one will accomplish nothing but draw attention to the person that you are attempting to establish the alibi for. In other words, it would be counter productive.

As said, being mistaken about the date is almost impossible so that leaves us with four realistic scenarios.

She was mistaken about it being Kelly
She was lying for whatever reason
It was Kelly and she was killed later
It was Kelly and it was someone else who was killed in her room

[Michael W Richards]

Error as to date must be somewhat discarded for two reasons; Maxwell saw 'Kelly' the same day as she told the police and; her trip to the milk shop was confirmed by the shop owner. And she didn't go every day.

Even if we accept your statement above Jon it doesnt dismiss the possibility, (since she was supposedly talking to someone she barely knew anyway), that she wasnt talking to Mary Jane of Millers Court, but perhaps believed she was. Again, my question about her eyesight might be relevant here.

When attempting to explain why George Hutchinson waited 4 days before telling what he says was the truth, or why Israel Schwartz is not on record as having appeared or at the very least had his story provided to the Inquest on Liz Stride, or why Pearly Poll skipped the police lineup arranged for her to view the soldiers, or why Carrie Maxwell says she spoke with Mary Jane roughly 6 hours after her TOD as estimated by Bond, ......one has to accept that there is a Plausibility Factor at play here. If what the witness claims wasnt plausible, let alone reasonable....despite their devotion to their so-called "truth", then their statements cannot be accepted as gospel. Not without solid corroboration anyway.

Its not plausible that a good friend of someone would wait 4 days to speak with the police about an extremely important suspect in the murder of said friend... and its not plausible that they would see the kind of detail reported with only sporadic lamp lighting available and at a distance, its not plausible that Bond, a senior medical authority, would screw up the TOD by more than 6 hours, and its not plausible that someone who was in essence a stranger to Carrie Maxwell would even know her first name let alone refer to her by it.

People need to remember that HUNDREDS, nay Thousands of fake claims to knowledge of the murderer at large came in via the mail. Fake claims or stories are a part of all these murder mysteries.....its not shocking that we cannot reconcile some of them with any kind of reasonable truth.

People want proof Maxwell was incorrect...I say the proof was in her own statement and on the bed in room 13. She didnt know Mary well enough to have had such an exchange with her that morning, and Mary couldnt have had that exchange at all since she was dead at the time.

Best regards

[richardnunweek]

Hi Stan.
Whilst you raise a good point about being counter productive, let's add on this.
Suppose Maxwell suspected her husband of being the Ripper, and she found out that she had sent a letter addressed to the Norfolk police with the address of 14, Dorset street on it, their very address, lets also surmise that she had discovered that morning that her husband was blood stained, or in a highly excitable manner, and he had informed her what he had done.
Lets not forget that after this murder, the police were quite adamant that the killer may have had a accomplice , or at least assisted the killer after the deed.
What would she do?
She may have been paranoid [ because of the letter] that a murder right opposite their residence may have been now considered not just a hoax , and came calling, and when it became obvious that the body had yet to be discovered, she may have attempted to give her husband an alibi, by letting him be seen with her in Dorset street after she claimed to have seen Kelly, and remain so until the body was discovered.
A lot of speculative ideas , but nothing is cut and dried in this case, especially Millers court.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

Hi Michael.

Even if we accept your statement above Jon it doesnt dismiss the possibility, (since she was supposedly talking to someone she barely knew anyway), that she wasnt talking to Mary Jane of Millers Court, but perhaps believed she was. Again, my question about her eyesight might be relevant here.

In other words you agree with Stan?, when he writes:
"...She was mistaken about it being Kelly...".

Thats where my money goes.

When attempting to explain why George Hutchinson waited 4 days before telling what he says was the truth,...

To say he 'waited' implies he knew he should come forward. We don't know this.
What relevance is a 2:30 am sighting if Kelly was killed between 5:00am and 9:00 am?, as was being offered in the press?

Its not plausible that a good friend of someone would wait 4 days to speak with the police about an extremely important suspect in the murder of said friend...

I agree. So lest dispense with the suggestion.

...and its not plausible that they would see the kind of detail reported with only sporadic lamp lighting available and at a distance,

He didn't pass right under said lamp then?

...its not plausible that Bond, a senior medical authority, would screw up the TOD by more than 6 hours,

Both Bond and Phillips had trouble estimating Times of Death, this much is evident.

....and its not plausible that someone who was in essence a stranger to Carrie Maxwell would even know her first name let alone refer to her by it.
.
.
...People want proof Maxwell was incorrect...I say the proof was in her own statement and on the bed in room 13. She didnt know Mary well enough to have had such an exchange with her that morning, and Mary couldnt have had that exchange at all since she was dead at the time.

Yes, Maxwell was mistaken.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Well oK,
Clearly this thread was intended [ tongue-in cheek] to suggest another angle that being, Maxwell deliberately lied to the police for personal survival.
It is clear that this is a non starter.lets be realistic, so the truth has to be, she was mistaking Kelly for Lizzie Albrook , as the wrong day is a non starter, that is the only practical reasoning.
If we rule out possibility that the medical opinion was wrong, and the extremely unlikely sinister suggestion that the body was not that of Mary Jane, the mistaken answer is the one to be with.
That would leave us to ask the question.?
Who was the last officially named person to claim to have seen Mary Kelly, if one leaves out Maxwell?
Maurice Lewis.
Regards Richard,

[Wickerman]

.
.
That would leave us to ask the question.?
Who was the last officially named person to claim to have seen Mary Kelly, if one leaves out Maxwell?
Maurice Lewis.

Hi Richard.

1st question: - What do you mean by 'officially named person'?
2nd question: - Do you mean, "if one leaves out Maxwell & Maurice Lewis", or
Do you mean, "if one leaves out Maxwell, - Maurice Lewis"?

Far be it from me to say something controversial but, as far as 'the last person to see Mary Kelly' goes, I think that was Mrs Kennedy.

[Beowulf]

Hi Stan.
Whilst you raise a good point about being counter productive, let's add on this.
Suppose Maxwell suspected her husband of being the Ripper, and she found out that she had sent a letter addressed to the Norfolk police with the address of 14, Dorset street on it, their very address, lets also surmise that she had discovered that morning that her husband was blood stained, or in a highly excitable manner, and he had informed her what he had done.
Lets not forget that after this murder, the police were quite adamant that the killer may have had a accomplice , or at least assisted the killer after the deed.
What would she do?
She may have been paranoid [ because of the letter] that a murder right opposite their residence may have been now considered not just a hoax , and came calling, and when it became obvious that the body had yet to be discovered, she may have attempted to give her husband an alibi, by letting him be seen with her in Dorset street after she claimed to have seen Kelly, and remain so until the body was discovered.
A lot of speculative ideas , but nothing is cut and dried in this case, especially Millers court.
Regards Richard.

Is there any reason to suppose her husband was NOT the Ripper? What if he was and his wife was trying to protect him? What if he deliberately cut the dead woman's face up so that no one could identify WHO was murdered because of some particular recent tie to Mary that would make people think of him as a suspect immediately.

Maybe he had some association with her he felt was very likely to lead them right to his door but it was a clue never discovered. Then his loyal wife, Mrs. Maxwell led everyone on a merry goose chase with her story? I'm guessing this has been an oft perused motive?

[Ginger]

What if he deliberately cut the dead woman's face up so that no one could identify WHO was murdered because of some particular recent tie to Mary that would make people think of him as a suspect immediately.

Only my opinion, but I do tend to think that leaving the victim in Mary's bed would probably kind of ruin the plan to disassociate the victim from Mary.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Beowulf.
Maxwell's husband has never been looked into , so the answer is he has never been eliminated from suspicion.
It is entirely possible that by destroying Kelly's face the killer was hoping to distance himself from any possible identification via her eyes,which may give some credence to him having a knowledge of the person.
At least this thread in a small way, has got people talking over different angles, which is only beneficial.
Regards Richard.