How Did Prater Hear Kelly Scream? (Moved Thread)

[Guest]

Just wanted to say thanks to Stewart for posting these documents, its a treat to see things written in someones own hand.

I would really be pleased if someone would take the next step in this discussion, if Elizabeth heard the voice through a courtyard window, as it seems clear she did, could she have heard that if Marys door was closed and Mary Jane was inside? Because it seems to me there are only 2 real possibilities there...Mary was outside her room coming in, still in the courtyard... or Mary was inside her room, with the door open at the time of the "cry". The fact that its followed by silence, as per the two "ear" witnesses, should help with that question a bit. Also that Sarah seems to have heard it as being louder than Elizabeth described.

If Mary said "oh-murder" from her room via the open door...her voice is being projected down court, as thats the way she would be facing when speaking. Coming in to her room, she would likely be facing her door.

Best regards all.

[Ally]

Two words: Broken Window

[Rob Clack]

Who said it was Mary Kelly that said "Oh Murder"?

Rob

[Fisherman]

Lewis, staying with the Keylers, kind of opposite to Marys room if I am not mistaken, heard a loud scream. Prater heard a faint one (or two, or three...)

What´s wrong with believing that Keylers lodgings faced the court, whereas Praters faced Dorset Street, explaining the difference in volume?

If, that is, it was indeed Mary they heard.

The best,
Fisherman

[richardnunweek]

HI Guys,
Yes Its repetative, but what is wrong with my claim that the cry actually heard was indeed Mjk, but it occured because of 'awakening ' from a nightmare, and as the cry heard was that of 'Oh murder' and that is given extra credence by Lotties remarks to Kit Watkins some two years later, and also by Prater at the inquest. what is wrong in suggesting that the cry heard around 4am on that fateful morning was not infact Marys demise?
Regards Richard.

[c.d.]

What I find really strange is that Prater testified that she did not investigate because she frequently heard cries of Oh Murder! from the back of the lodging house. Since I don't think that people were being murdered there on a regular basis, it would appear that the term had some other meaning besides the literal one. I am wondering if it was used by the prostitutes during sex as if to say.... well, use your imagination here.

c.d.

[perrymason]

Whomever moved this, I assume Ms Ally, thanks.

The broken window (s) ? Well its possible Ally they were blocked somewhat, one broken pane by the pilot coat, the other covered by a curtain. I agree, a curtain is no big deal, but wouldnt Liz hear that "as from inside the house" if Marys door was closed? Sarah says it was "as if at her door", and she heard it as being louder than Elizabeth.

I think one logical answer is that it was spoken in the direction of Sarah Lewis's/The Keylers room...down court, and it was spoken in open air, at the doorway, with the door open...or in the court itself. The acoustics in that court must come into play I would think, and it would sound louder to Sarah than it did Elizabeth in that scenario.

Rob,....if not Mary, and not Mary Ann, or Julia, or Sarah, or any of the women we hear from on this investigation, then who? It came from the court, that seems to be the consensus, as does Elizabeth having a window facing into the court. We only have a finite number of women in that court, and no records that outsiders, like other "street" women, came in or brought men in. At the time its heard, roughly 3:45am, its most likely a resident of the court...and one witness, the owner of the cry, couldnt speak for herself later.

I think this little point...open door/closed door-inside opening/outside entering...is where the identity of the killer, or at least his relationship to Mary, may be.

And so its a solid base we all work from, both the Keylers digs, and Elizabeths room, had a courtyard facing view. The Keylers, at least the door Sarah mentions, and Liz did have a courtyard window.

Best regards.

[Brenda]

What I find really strange is that Prater testified that she did not investigate because she frequently heard cries of Oh Murder! from the back of the lodging house. Since I don't think that people were being murdered there on a regular basis, it would appear that the term had some other meaning besides the literal one. I am wondering if it was used by the prostitutes during sex as if to say.... well, use your imagination here.

c.d.

Not unless they wanted to invite the police and the entire neighborhood to watch the show!

[perrymason]

We already have a few press interviews prior to this event to inform us that "murder" , or "oh-murder", or "Bloody Murder"....need not be literal. The word was used in Victorian England at times in the same way "damn" is today....drop a glass..."Damn/Oh murder"...."these (damn) boots are Bloody murder on my feet"...."oh-murder, I forgot my scarf"...

Im sure it was used literally at times, but if so, the tone, the volume and the angst in the voice would signal the severity of the situation. Mrs Prater heard a "faintish cry"...and nothing else.

How did Prater hear the scream?

Just as she said..."as from the court". The presence of at least one court window which she might have heard that through is established,... what is not, is if she also had a Dorset facing window.

My contention is that if the voice was Mary Janes...and its quite possible, even probable, that it was...it could not have been heard "as from the court" if she cried out "faintishly" in her room with a closed door. I believe she had to have either been at the open door, inside the room,... or outside the room, entering it.

One answer implies she was out until 3:45 ish...without any accredited witness seeing her leave, or even outside her room, after 11:45pm Nov 8th.

The other implies someone arrived at her door, and she answered it....to find someone standing there she hadnt really wanted to see at 3:45am, while sleeping off a drunk. So she groggily opens the door, and exclaims "oh-Murder"..as she turns to go back to bed and leaves him to come in and close the door.

Best regards.

[Fisherman]

Michael! You write:

"The presence of at least one court window which she might have heard that through is established,... what is not, is if she also had a Dorset facing window."

Is it, Michael? Established, I mean; that Prater had a courtyard facing window??

The best,
Fisherman