Mary Jane Kelly, From Whitechapel?

[DJA]

John 2,was Mary Ann Kelly's eldest brother.
He was 20 years her senior and resided at 33 Turville Street during the 1881 Census.
Mary Ann was in the Bakers Row Infirmary at the time with VD.She was 29 when murdered.
Baptized at the Shoreditch Church.

[Varqm]

John 2,was Mary Ann Kelly's eldest brother.
He was 20 years her senior and resided at 33 Turville Street during the 1881 Census.
Mary Ann was in the Bakers Row Infirmary at the time with VD.She was 29 when murdered.
Baptized at the Shoreditch Church.

I've seen that before.But the problem is if all those Irish Wales stories were false,her name too could be false.Not only that but the infirmary recognized some of their former patients or a former acquaintance in the infirmary did,like Nichols if I remember right.Although she was in the infirmary way back in 1881.
But it's a possibility.

[Wickerman]

I agree, Kelly's story about Scot guard johnto maybe false,maybe he was a client.I think this is more likely.The 2nd BT Scot quards would have known if there was a Kelly amongst them with a sister Mary Ann or Jane,Jean,Jeanette.Another possible reason Kelly was embellishing, pulling Joe's leg.

If you had been in the military you'd be aware of just how many soldiers use a different name.
My father & uncle were both in the military, my uncle was known by his buddies as Jack - I don't know what his military records show, but his real name was William.
So the fact no soldiers knew of a John or Henry Kelly is no surprise to me.

By the way, I don't think the name was "Johnto", it was John.
Abberline had a habit of linking his words together, so it looks to me like he wrote "John to". It is quite common for people to write "to" for "too", my own wife does it.
Thousands do it, the context of Abberline's note was to point out that Mary's father was called John, that her brother was called "John too" - meaning, John as well.
But, thats just me.

[Wickerman]

That came across too abrupt, sorry - not finished my first coffee yet.
What I meant was had you been in the army you might know that it was common for your friends to use a false name - part of the mystique.

[Varqm]

If you had been in the military you'd be aware of just how many soldiers use a different name.
My father & uncle were both in the military, my uncle was known by his buddies as Jack - I don't know what his military records show, but his real name was William.
So the fact no soldiers knew of a John or Henry Kelly is no surprise to me.

By the way, I don't think the name was "Johnto", it was John.
Abberline had a habit of linking his words together, so it looks to me like he wrote "John to". It is quite common for people to write "to" for "too", my own wife does it.
Thousands do it, the context of Abberline's note was to point out that Mary's father was called John, that her brother was called "John too" - meaning, John as well.
But, thats just me.

The ripper was big news.I was going along the lines of, knowing a brother of a horribly murdered victim is in the 2nd BT Scots guard ,that among themselves, they question who has a sister named Mary Jane/Jeanette kelly.The guard's name would not have mattered.That is if John-to was still active in 1888.
I doubt this John-to existed.Mrs Phoenix/Felix was told by Kelly she had a kid,but Felix said she never saw the kid once.So Kelly was used to telling stories? The west end brothel story was corroborated by Buki/Boeke ,the Irish connection was consistent among many witnesses though.

[MrBarnett]

The ripper was big news.I was going along the lines of, knowing a brother of a horribly murdered victim is in the 2nd BT Scots guard ,that among themselves, they question who has a sister named Mary Jane/Jeanette kelly.The guard's name would not have mattered.That is if John-to was still active in 1888.
I doubt this John-to existed.Mrs Phoenix/Felix was told by Kelly she had a kid,but Felix said she never saw the kid once.So Kelly was used to telling stories? The west end brothel story was corroborated by Buki/Boeke ,the Irish connection was consistent among many witnesses though.

Did the mention of the 2nd Batallion Scots Guards connection make it into the Dublin newspapers?

It’s not clear where the story of the collection of the box of dresses came from, but it was most likely from Mrs McCarthy, who may have heard the story from Elisabeth Boekee, or she may have got it from MJK.

[Parisi North Humber]

I've been trying to find any contemporary evidence/support/corroboration to give credence to MJK' oral self history/life story and apart from the Buki visit to retrieve belongings and the report of a letter from Ireland as recalled by McCarthy I can find little substantiated first hand testimony (using in the wider sense) to support her claims, that is not to say all she told was fabrication or heavily embroidered.

As such I thought about claims she made that didn't seem to fit within her tale of woe, of child marriage, widowed young woman, corrupted by cousin due to lack of any financial support etc and one of the things that stands out (to me at least) was the story of the long infirmary stay, but before I elaborate can I ask the wiser cognoscenti on casebook where the details of the infirmary stay comes from? And was there any indication of what the prolonged stay was required for? I know there has been posited that it was TB related but was that mentioned at the time?

I've tried doing a search in casebook but can't seem to find the details of length of her stay etc, I thought I read eight months somewhere but I could well be wrong so any enlightenment in the subject would be greatly appreciated.

Helen x

[Varqm]

Did the mention of the 2nd Batallion Scots Guards connection make it into the Dublin newspapers?

It’s not clear where the story of the collection of the box of dresses came from, but it was most likely from Mrs McCarthy, who may have heard the story from Elisabeth Boekee, or she may have got it from MJK.

I did not look into that.Sooner or later it would have reached them,one way or another.

Mrs. Buki/Boekee,if I remember right,and goes with Barnett's story of MJK in a West End gay house and trip to France.Its kinda puzzling there is no police or newspaper report of this brothel or Fleming or Morganstone/stern.

[MrBarnett]

I couldn’t find any mention in the Dublin press and the battalion were stationed in Ireland until well into 1889. The chances of them becoming aware of the connection in the week or so prior to Kelly’s burial seems remote.

Of course, if ‘Johnto’ was her brother, then her wider family might have picked up on the Scot’s Guards connection, but even if they did, they might not have wanted to publicly acknowledge that MJK was their family member. And if ‘Johnto’ was a customer, why would he want to broadcast his association with a murdered prostitute?

There is no evidence of Mrs Boekee herself being interviewed, so the story could have been relayed to Mrs McCarthy by Kelly, in which case there would be no corroboration. That said, I think the chances are that Mrs McCarthy and Mrs Boekee would have known each other.

Johannes Morgenstern was a very violent man. A few years later he attacked three prostitutes, kicking one of them, stabbing another and then calmly removing his jacket and waistcoat to beat the third with a poker. In 1891 a prostitute named Lottie Jones was attacked with an axe in 79, Pennington Street. Kelly’s was an occupation full of danger from her customers and potentially from her employers. And it seems she had reconnected with her associates in the Highway not long before she was killed. A thorough police investigation should have included interviewing her associates in the Highway. Perhaps it did and the records of it have been lost. I’m more inclined to think that the police had Kelly pegged as the latest victim of a serial killer with and didn’t really consider her murder as possibly not being part of the series.

[MrBarnett]

Here’s one version of the ‘Buki’ dresses story. It’s not clear who was the source for it. Off the top of my head, I can’t remember if we know where Elisabeth Boekee was in November, 1888. It appears from the report, though, that Mrs McCarthy was interviewed. Perhaps she was the source for the story, in which case who was her source? Perhaps it was Boekee or perhaps it was MJK.

[MrBarnett]

There are variations of this report which say a representative of the Press Association ‘made enquiries in the Ratcliff-highway and other quarters of the East-end equally notorious…’

It does seem that Mrs McCarthy was interviewed, but the reports say that it ‘appears’ that Kelly lived with ‘Buki/Buky’. That suggests to me that Boekee herself was not interviewed, and so there is no definite corroboration of the dresses/French lady.

[Varqm]

It seems Kelly was not telling the reason in Pennington she was out of the West End house,more likely to me it was her fault,perhaps not completing the French outing (Barnett) ,she abruptly went back to London.
Yeah it seems like Mrs McCarthy was the source of the story Buki and MJK went to Knightsbridge.Yes Buki and McCarthy may have known each other. But still it was possible it was somebody else or even some people gossiping to the reporter,who knew of their trip to Knightsbridge.
At the very least Pennington and Dorset st. knew her as Mary or Mary Jane Kelly.If it was not her real name she adopted it in the West End with an added Jeannette,sounding french?
Did prostitutes in West end brothels used their real name?I doubt it just off the bat.

[MrBarnett]

It seems Kelly was not telling the reason she was out of the West End house,more likely to me it was her fault,perhaps not completing the French outing,she abruptly went back to London.
Yeah it seems like Mrs McCarthy was the source of the story Buki and MJK went to Knightsbridge.But still it was possible it was somebody or even some people gossiping,who knew of their trip to Knightsbridge.

It’s possible, but not certain. I doubt Boekee and Morgenstern were still in Pennington Street in November, 1888. Their next door neighbours the Maywood’s (also apparently brothel keepers) at 1, Breezer’s Hill had moved out.

The dresses incident had been, what, three years previously? If the PA reporter had limited his investigations to Spitalfields and Breezer’s Hill, it’s possible that he didn’t make contact with anyone who’d known Mary/Boekee in 1885.

I’ve always considered the dresses story to be corroboration of the whole West End/French lady episode, but I’m now of the opinion that it ain’t necessarily so.

[DJA]

Le Chabanais - Wikipedia

[MrBarnett]

Le Chabanais - Wikipedia

Kelly?

Joannet??

;-)