Mary Jane Kelly, From Whitechapel?

[DJA]

Fiona Kendall-Lane stated that her great-grandmother (McCarthy's wife) sent a parcel of Kelly's belongings to a brother serving in an Irish brigade in Ireland.

JM

Marie Kendall married into the family in 1895.Her divorce was not pretty.

[DJA]

Marie Kendall, 1930's - Film 110 - YouTube

[Parisi North Humber]

Hi Wickerman, I never meant to insinuate that we dismiss everything we know about MJK (as we can not know which bits to cherry pick) I was just that trying to point out to the OP that all we are told about MJK's history should be taken with a pinch of salt, and I used the story of one of the McCarthy's parceling up MJK's belongings as an illustration.

Helen x

[mpriestnall]

"Kelly" was born in London but died/buried elsewhere. Fact!

[Fleetwood Mac]

Overall, I just think it is a bit suspect that most of her life sounds like a story your Grandparents would tell you. Personally, my own family have quite strong Welsh ties and I have on several occasions been told the age old story of "Your ancestors worked down the coal mines." and "Did you know that your Great Great Uncle died in a mining explosion?" stuff like that. Even if you disagree I would still love your perspective on this since I don't totally believe it myself it's just a thought is all.

I'm from a coal mining region and disasters and explosions were very much real, particularly in the latter half of the 19th century.

I don't see this part of her story relayed to Joe Barnett as being fanciful and it's hardly a grandiose claim given that mining disasters were a part of mining life during that period. I don't think anyone of a Victorian age working-class background would have found this to be outside of the ordinary or endearing in some way.

What I would say is that married at 16 seems unusual. I've done my family tree, all from mining areas and predominantly coal mining areas, and I didn't come across anyone, whether family or false lead, who was married at 16. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it was far from being the norm.

I think at the very least, Mary was in living in a place where a mining disaster occurred.

As far as coal miners being transient workers, this is true to an extent. In those days, people followed work around but only where there was no work/the mine was closed where they lived. A lot of the mines in County Durham opened in the latter part of the 19th century, and most of those people who travelled here for work were from Cornwall, Staffordshire, Ireland and Scotland. Welsh coalmines were abundant during the latter part of the 19th century and so there was really no need for coal miners to leave and find work elsewhere (unless they wished to emigrate outside of the British Isles due to unrelated reasons).

It's a fair bet that in the event Mary did live in South Wales and went on to marry a coal miner, the pit explosion took place in South Wales.

[Wickerman]

It has often been pointed out that if Kelly had been married, then we should be looking for a Mary Davies. How many widows change their name back to their maiden name after such an incident?
Or, perhaps, her name never was Mary Kelly?
Was the victim really a Mary Davies?

[Fleetwood Mac]

In the event there was a Mary Jane Kelly who moved to Wales, married a man named Davies and had brothers named Henry and John; she would have come up in the records.

One possible avenue is that an Irish Mary would have been a catholic, she would have married a catholic, Methodism was the religion of coal mining areas.

'Probably looking for Davies a catholic man in an area with a high concentration of Methodists, 'may narrow it down a bit.

[Wickerman]

The Evening News reported she had 1 sister, and 7 brothers, 6 at home and one in the army. Other papers reported 6 or 7 brothers, yet some said only 6.
In Wales, only one Irish born woman, a Mary Ann Kelly, has been found with 7 brothers and 1 sister, but she was still alive in the 1891 census.
Though, as I speculated, if the victim's real name was not Mary Kelly, maybe she was a close friend or relative of this Mary Ann Kelly, and used her identity?
We may have been closer to solving this riddle than we realized.

Mary told Barnett she had a cousin in Cardiff....
One may wonder if that cousin disappeared in 1888?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Had Mary lived in Wales during her childhood, it's more than a good bet she would have spoken with a Welsh accent. Yet no witness trying to prove the point he or she spoke to Mary around the time of her murder, nor anybody talking about Mary's past life, mentioned a Welsh accent.

[Parisi North Humber]

Do we know where the papers got the details of Mary's siblings from? Was there any quotes or sources for the information?
FM, I concur that the lack of any reports of an accent (Welsh, Irish or anything else) is quite telling. I would assume that one of the many Whitechapel personages she spoke to or associated with would have mentioned that "she didn't speak the same like us" even if they couldn't identify what her accent was.

Helen x

[DJA]

[Coroner] Have you had conversation with deceased about her parents ? - Yes, frequently. She said she was born in Limerick, and went when very young to Wales. She did not say how long she lived there, but that she came to London about four years ago. Her father's name was John Kelly, a "gaffer" or foreman in an iron works in Carnarvonshire, or Carmarthen. She said she had one sister, who was respectable, who travelled from market place to market place. This sister was very fond of her. There were six brothers living in London, and one was in the army. One of them was named Henry. I never saw the brothers to my knowledge. She said she was married when very young in Wales to a collier. I think the name was Davis or Davies. She said she had lived with him until he was killed in an explosion, but I cannot say how many years since that was. Her age was, I believe, 16 when she married. After her husband's death deceased went to Cardiff to a cousin.

[DJA]

Elizabeth Phoenix - Jack the Ripper Wiki

[DJA]

[Varqm]

I do not know if they did or the records were kept or they were destroyed but the police did not seek or interview Morganstone,Fleming, Buki to find the French gay house in the West End.Its puzzling.

GjWalker I do not think the story about Kelly visiting Elephant and Castle came from Barnett.

The John Davies is probably the last hope.The name used in an orphanage,if true, might have been different.The Irish \Welsh connection was consistent in several witnesses.

[Parisi North Humber]

Thank you Dave.

It's a shame so much of Mary"s story is uncorroborated. I believe the visit to attempt to retrieve her belongings (whatever they were) was witnessed by Mrs Buki who accompanied Mary so that seems (on the surface at least) to be a piece of corroborative data. McCarthy states she received correspondence from Ireland so again that is a small piece of information that isn't just what Mary told somebody.
If we believe in the veracity of the witness statements what other substantive third party information/evidence can we apply to Mary's story?

Helen x