A 'Burning' Question

[Errata]

As to the reported ferocity of the fire, the fact is that it wasn't. Ferocious I mean. And we know this from one simple fact. The investigators could identify the clothing that was in the fire as clothing. A really hot fire ( and I know this from a very close call in a Jewelers shop) does not set cloth on fire. Not in the typical smoldery, flamesy way we think about. A very hot flame immediately renders the cloth to ash. Almost like magic. Unrecognizable, unidentifiable ash. If they found even a tiny piece of charred fabric in that fireplace, the fire was not that hot. Certainly no hotter than your average hearth fire.

As for the solder, metal does not melt because of heat. It melts because of the application of heat over time. Because metal is a conductor, it holds on to the heat. Over time the metal gets hotter than the fire. Which is why a soldering iron that is only hot enough to create a first degree burn on someone can melt gold in a couple of minutes. A hot iron pressed against flesh will cool. A hot iron pressed against metal will actually heat up slightly. Because of the low melting point of lead, the application of heat required comparatively little time. Had it been steel, THAT would have been impressive.

So not ferocious.

[C. F. Leon]

As to the reported ferocity of the fire, the fact is that it wasn't. Ferocious I mean. And we know this from one simple fact. The investigators could identify the clothing that was in the fire as clothing. A really hot fire ( and I know this from a very close call in a Jewelers shop) does not set cloth on fire. Not in the typical smoldery, flamesy way we think about. A very hot flame immediately renders the cloth to ash. Almost like magic. Unrecognizable, unidentifiable ash. If they found even a tiny piece of charred fabric in that fireplace, the fire was not that hot. Certainly no hotter than your average hearth fire.

As for the solder, metal does not melt because of heat. It melts because of the application of heat over time. Because metal is a conductor, it holds on to the heat. Over time the metal gets hotter than the fire. Which is why a soldering iron that is only hot enough to create a first degree burn on someone can melt gold in a couple of minutes. A hot iron pressed against flesh will cool. A hot iron pressed against metal will actually heat up slightly. Because of the low melting point of lead, the application of heat required comparatively little time. Had it been steel, THAT would have been impressive.

So not ferocious.

The ferocity of the fire is surmised by most authors, since it is usually followed by "it melted the kettle". (You can tell how well the author has done the research by whether they say the kettle melted or just the spout.)

And of course, EVERYTHING was related to the murder- these people had no other lives except that particular night and everyone was connected to everyone else.

[C. F. Leon]

That makes me wonder about the chemise-- not what you'd sleep in on a cold night, which makes me wonder either if she was expecting someone, or if the killer dressed her in it. But then, I don't know just how cold the night was.

18°C is a pretty big difference. I don't think just boiling water in the kettle would tend to melt the solder. If it did, then people who did repair work wouldn't use it, because people would complain.

It might have been the wrong solder to repair that kettle, though. If the spout was heavy, you would need to use solder that wouldn't even soften when water boiled, of the spout would fall off. Was the kettle made that way, or had it been broken and repaired? I seem to remember that it was originally one piece, but the spout broke off, and it was repaired, but I can't find it now.

Regarding the blood-- blood is not water. It will clot and dry, and not spread over as big an area as other liquids.

I don't think LVP chemises were the sexy lacy whisps of nothing that they are in the Victoria Secrets catalogues nowadays, although they were less ornate than some of the huge ornate nightdresses of the time.

[Cogidubnus]

The ferocity of the fire is surmised by most authors, since it is usually followed by "it melted the kettle". (You can tell how well the author has done the research by whether they say the kettle melted or just the spout.)

Far from melting the spout, it's always been my understanding that the fire had in fact melted the SOLDER at both the spout and the handle...so that the parts were separated rather than destroyed

I don't think LVP chemises were the sexy lacy whisps of nothing that they are in the Victoria Secrets catalogues nowadays, although they were less ornate than some of the huge ornate nightdresses of the time.

Well it can't have been that substantial otherwise it'd have shown up better in the photos!

All the best

Dave

[C. F. Leon]

Far from melting the spout, it's always been my understanding that the fire had in fact melted the SOLDER at both the spout and the handle...so that the parts were separated rather than destroyed

Dave

Right- that does seem to be the actual case. That's what I did mean, but just simplified.

[Wickerman]

That makes me wonder about the chemise-- not what you'd sleep in on a cold night, which makes me wonder either if she was expecting someone, or if the killer dressed her in it.

Contrary to popular opinion, the chemise was not some fancy adornment she put on to beautify herself for a client, rather it was the last item of clothing she did not take off.

All the previous victims, from Nichols, Chapman, Stride & Eddowes, were all found to be wearing their chemise as an undergarment.

Just a point of trivia

[RivkahChaya]

I'm aware that it's an undergarment-- I think we had a whole thread on it. I was just under the impression that people didn't sleep in undergarments, if they had a choice, because they wanted to sort of air them out for the next day.

Also, seeing someone in undergarments is always a bit naughty. Women go to the beach in bathing suits that are much more revealing than most bra-panty combinations, yet it's still titillating to be seen in underwear in a way that being seen in a bikini isn't.

[Errata]

The ferocity of the fire is surmised by most authors, since it is usually followed by "it melted the kettle". (You can tell how well the author has done the research by whether they say the kettle melted or just the spout.)

And of course, EVERYTHING was related to the murder- these people had no other lives except that particular night and everyone was connected to everyone else.

I had a lead soldered lantern fall apart on my back porch a few summers ago. And I don't live on the sun. Moderate heat applied over time is sufficient. It's actually harder to fry an egg on the sidewalk, but everyone knows someone who's seen that happen.

And besides. A fire hot enough to melt a kettle would have warped the floors badly.

[RivkahChaya]

Well, that's why the repair guy has to know what he's doing. It's possible that the solder won't actually melt, but because of the way the spout sticks out, if the solder even gets soft, the spout will fall off.

I used to do a lot of soldering in the Army.

It also could just have been a poor job, and more likely to fail. You can "burn" the solder, or not clean the parts you want the join well enough.

[moonbegger]

Hello all ,

Regarding Jane Coram's reconstruction image , I have read on these boards that there was a few different illustrations named " Fisherman's widow " at the time . is the one included in Jane Coram's reconstruction image the actual one which is believed to have hung in Kelly's room ?

cheers ,

moonbegger