was her killer really a local

[Phil H]

Thanks Sally - I really only came back for the Ripperologist discussion and then saw something I might be able to contribute to.

I think I must have found the plan and the pic on the web -they are not anything I scanned in. Hence I felt I could use them.

Good to see you too.

Phil

[Sally]

Great post Phil - nice to see you here ��

[DVV]

Sorry all, but one thing that is important to understand is : good enough for a trick, good enough for a JtR murder.
No murder that he has committed outdoors took him more time than a trick.

[Nick Spring]

To Phil

Phil,

Excellent point and I totally agree with you about Hanbury Street. The risks were enormous without having prior knowledge to the layout. Although having said that he may have been with Annie before and knew the form and therefore felt comfortable going there.

I have always had a hunch that Hanbury Street holds the key.

Best wishes

Nick

[Stephen Thomas]

I attach a pic of the corridor/staircase and a plan (edited to add that I am unsure of the source of these images so if I have trodden on anyone's toes by using them, I will gladly ask admin to remove them).

Hello Phil

The floor plan of the ground floor of 29 Hanbury St is perfect and lovely.

Big up to whoever did it. Very professional.

[Phil H]

The test for "localness" for me, is Hanbury St.

The strong indications are that "Jack" let the women lead him to the place where he killed them. In all cases - Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes (Stride too if you include her) there is a wooden door, fence or paling against which the woman can lean and which has "give".

Now, would you follow an unknown woman through one door, along a passage and out of another, where you did not know what lay ahead?

With Nicols and Eddowes there were alternative escape routes options - he could see where he was being taken. With Chapman he could not. Anything could have been waiting the other side of those doors, and he had no idea what sort of yard, what sort of fences awaited him - could he scale them in extremis?

Unless, he had been in that yard before and perhaps knew something of the nocturnal habits of the inhabitants, whether the privy got used much, or did anyone come in late/go out early?

Now I'm NOT saying that I believe "Jack" lived in No 29. But might he have been one of the homless who sometimes slept on the staircase? We know Richardson had to drive them away sometimes and the police (see Sugden p105) issued a description of such a man at one point. IF (and that is just a suggestion) Jack had spent nights in that corridor, he might have used the privy and known it as a "quiet" house. He would also have known that the fences were climbable.

That knowledge would IMHO have reduced the "risks" of following Annie to a much more acceptable level.

I should add that I also believe that Annie was killed much earlier than usually thought - around 3.45 (same as Polly) when the night would have been darker and the risk of someone looking out of a window MUCH less that the usually accepted time when people were already about and going to work in large numbers. But that is not relevant to the local issue - only to the risks.

If one adds those facts to the indications from the other murders that "Jack" knew his way around Whitechapel/Spitalfields, knew the back doubles and alleys, then I believe that this helps to demonstrate that the killer was indeed a local boy gone bad.

I attack a pic of the corridor/staircase and a plan (edited to add that I am unsure of the source of these images so if I have trodden on anyone's toes by using them, I will gladly ask admin to remove them).

Phil

[bolo]

Hello Richard,

It is widely assumed that the killer was led by the women to secluded spots, for servicing, and met their ends precisely there, but would a local , or streetwise person, allow the prostitute to dictate such a spot, it surely would be one almighty risk to venture into one, with the increased risk of being attacked and robbed by a lurking gang.
I am not stating that this did not happen, but a outsider may have not considered that risk, where as a local man would surely have found his own spot either by chance ,or preplanned...

it's the other way around for me. In my opinion it would have been much easier for a local man to escape from a secluded spot he had been led to than for a non-local who may have known the large thoroughfares of the East End and how to get there but only had a vague idea of the maze of small streets, byways and alleys behind them.

About the risk the killer was confronted with on the murder locations, I think the prostitutes of the East End knew where to go to in order to avoid trouble with the Police or mobsters. This way, they inadvertedly helped the killer and provided him with just the place and time frame he needed to do what he had in mind.

Then there's the small area where the murders took place. I think it's another sign for a local man who kept it at hunting down his victims in a surrounding he knew like the back of his hand and/or felt most comfortable with. The only location that seems 'preplanned' to me is Mary Kelly's abode in Miller's Court, and this was the most risky one of them all in my eyes.

Regards,

Boris

[Wickerman]

The first quote is from:
The Morning Advertiser, 12 Nov.
The Daily News, 12 Nov.
The Star, 12 Nov.

The second quote:
The Morning Advertiser, 10 Nov.
The Daily News, 10 Nov.

Have you ever done a search in the Press Reports?

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Thanks Wickerman

Where is that located at? Was having a devil of a time seaching fo it.

[Wickerman]

Elizabeth Phoenix told the press that Kelly:

"......stated first that she was Welsh, and that her parents, who had discarded her, still resided at Cardiff, whence she came to London."

Another unnamed women who knew Kelly when she lived at Cooley's lodging house also said:

"Kelly was a Welsh woman, and could speak Welsh fluently."

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Prosector

To introduce a slightly new element into this discussion, many writers including the person that wrote Mary Jane Kelly's profile in Casebook state that she spoke Welsh fluently. Does anyone know what the evidence for this is? Of course anyone who had been brought up in Wales (other than Monmouthshire) in the 1860s would almost certainly have spoken Welsh but is there any contemporary written evidence that Mary Jane did?

Prosector

I believe it was Barnett who relayed that. I could be wrong. I'll try and verify that.

[Prosector]

Did Mary Jane speak Welsh?

To introduce a slightly new element into this discussion, many writers including the person that wrote Mary Jane Kelly's profile in Casebook state that she spoke Welsh fluently. Does anyone know what the evidence for this is? Of course anyone who had been brought up in Wales (other than Monmouthshire) in the 1860s would almost certainly have spoken Welsh but is there any contemporary written evidence that Mary Jane did?

Prosector

[RivkahChaya]

One less thing to keep me from sleeping.

You might want to CP it, though, before the mods delete it as being irrelevant to the thread.

Also, I know what your screenname is, but somehow, I keep misreading it as "digital little person," like a little person who works in IT, or tech support, or something.

For Brits, there's an organization in the US & Canada called "Little People of America." It provides all kinds of support and resources to people of very short stature, and parents of such children. Medically, most of the members have a form of dwarfism, but they prefer the term "little person" to "dwarf," when it is describing a person, rather than a medical condition-- ie, "Pituitary Dwarfism" is fine; "that girl over here is a dwarf," is not. I don't think they've weighed in on the use of "dwarf" in things like World of Warcraft, but I think it's the way it's used in such things that makes it objectionable in the first place.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Thanks Rivkah

One less thing to keep me from sleeping.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

my memory

Is currently impaired do to sickness, but I swear I read a report or something similar that stated the blotchy guy spotted and reported about to the officer who said they were looking for someone, was actually an undercover. Currently searching for it.