Cry of "Oh, murder!"

[jollybonnet]

Around 4am on the morning of November 8, Miller's Court neighbors Sarah Lewis and Elizabeth Prater both heard a female voice cry out, "Oh, murder!" Many people assume this was Kelly crying out and that this therefore fixes the time of the attack at 4am. But really--if someone were brandishing a knife at your, doesn't it seem more likely that you would either scream wordlessly or shout "Help, help"? I've always thought that either A) the cry of "murder" had nothing to do with Kelly's death (apparently such events weren't uncommon on Dorset Street?), or B) a friend of Kelly's saw the body through the window or saw a blood-drenched man and--for whatever reason--chose to keep her mouth shut afterward. Admittedly, the latter theory is pretty thin.

Thoughts?

[Aethelwulf]

Around 4am on the morning of November 8, Miller's Court neighbors Sarah Lewis and Elizabeth Prater both heard a female voice cry out, "Oh, murder!" Many people assume this was Kelly crying out and that this therefore fixes the time of the attack at 4am. But really--if someone were brandishing a knife at your, doesn't it seem more likely that you would either scream wordlessly or shout "Help, help"? I've always thought that either A) the cry of "murder" had nothing to do with Kelly's death (apparently such events weren't uncommon on Dorset Street?), or B) a friend of Kelly's saw the body through the window or saw a blood-drenched man and--for whatever reason--chose to keep her mouth shut afterward. Admittedly, the latter theory is pretty thin.

Thoughts?

I can imagine cries of murder being common an hour either side of pubs closing, but at 4 am were they that common?

Bond stated that the sheet near Kelly's head was much cut and blood stained and had perhaps been over her head when the attack began. I doubt she was sleeping with the sheet over her so maybe the killer pulled it over and then attacked her. Perhaps the sheet being pulled over her was enough to wake her and that was when she screamed.

[JeffHamm]

It does seem a strange thing to cry out, but such calls are often reflexive "habits" (for lack of a better word). Those "habit words" can change with the times, and certainly today it seems almost contrived. I believe there are reports of a cry of "murder" coming closer to, or from, Brady street on the night of Nichol's murder as well in some of the early press reports, which are also described as common and likewise were not reacted to at the time. As such, it may indeed be that calling out "murder" was simply a commonly used cry for help if threatened and/or physically attacked.

I think something like that was probably the case given there is no reaction by anyone to question what to us seems an odd thing for someone to cry out and also the fact nobody who reports hearing this cry takes any real notice of it and just dismisses. Both of these appear to just be accepted, implying neither was considered odd at the time.

That, of course, makes it difficult for us to know what to do with this testimony. If such a cry was indeed common, it may have nothing to do at all with MJK. And given the reported sightings of her the following morning, there are grounds to build an argument along those lines. On the other hand, given she was found murdered the next day, and it is suggested it came from the area of her room, then it may indeed have been her responding to being attacked and so providing grounds to the argument that the sightings the next day were erroneous (or forming the basis of the "it wasn't Barnett's Mary Kelly who was killed" theory).

Basically, I think we have to view the "cry of murder" within the context of the time and that reports from that time tell us that this was not considered out of the ordinary.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Around 4am on the morning of November 8, Miller's Court neighbors Sarah Lewis and Elizabeth Prater both heard a female voice cry out, "Oh, murder!" Many people assume this was Kelly crying out and that this therefore fixes the time of the attack at 4am. But really--if someone were brandishing a knife at your, doesn't it seem more likely that you would either scream wordlessly or shout "Help, help"? I've always thought that either A) the cry of "murder" had nothing to do with Kelly's death (apparently such events weren't uncommon on Dorset Street?), or B) a friend of Kelly's saw the body through the window or saw a blood-drenched man and--for whatever reason--chose to keep her mouth shut afterward. Admittedly, the latter theory is pretty thin.

Thoughts?

i lean toward those were the cries of mary as she was being attacked. One of the sheets was cut through as if the killer had placed the sheet over her face and cut her neck through the sheet. perhaps this gave her just amount of time to cry out before being silenced.
and yes cries of murder were apparently common, but still, two witnesses heard it around the same time sounding like from a woman and near or from her room and around possible time of death, and in fact coinciding with a woman being murdered there.

[Kattrup]

It does indeed seem odd, but it was not uncommon for people being threatened or attacked to scream the word "murder" in order to attract attention and help. So there is nothing extraordinary about the idea that it was MJK screaming it, as it was heard around the time her murder was considered to occur.
Of course, it could equally have been someone else, because, as noted, such screams were said to be common around Miller's Court at the time. I personally believe it was MJK.

[c.d.]

I have always wondered if the police asked the tenants if they had heard anything in the night that was out of the ordinary like "oh, murder!" before telling them someone had been murdered? That could greatly influence their responses. The power of suggestion being strong.

c.d.

[jollybonnet]

I have always wondered if the police asked the tenants if they had heard anything in the night that was out of the ordinary like "oh, murder!" before telling them someone had been murdered? That could greatly influence their responses. The power of suggestion being strong.

c.d.

Good point. Obviously, there is no definitive answer as to how one might react or what one might say in such a situation. To my ear, "Oh, murder!" always sounded like something from a bad melodrama.

[JeffHamm]

Good point. Obviously, there is no definitive answer as to how one might react or what one might say in such a situation. To my ear, "Oh, murder!" always sounded like something from a bad melodrama.

Well, if it was shouted, I would think the "oh" was probably a more generalised shout of alarm rather than actually saying "Oh".

- Jeff

[GUT]

The witness said she did nothing because such cries were common, so absent evidence I see little reason to assume that it was Mary.

[C. F. Leon]

Someone (maybe Begg?) suggested that as presented, the cry sounds more like Someone discovering a murder, rather than a scream for help.

Similar low cries, rather than loud screaming to attract attention, are mentioned also for Tabram and Chapman ("No!").

[Abby Normal]

The witness said she did nothing because such cries were common, so absent evidence I see little reason to assume that it was Mary.

you mean evidence that someone was, in fact, murdered there? and that someone was mary kelly? lol

im sorry but the idea that screams of murder were common as a way to rule out mary is crazy. and as someone else mentioned, at 4:00am? cmon, lets be real.

which given the circs of the night also align with that being probable time of death. youve got two suspicious characters hutch and blotchy, around her at that time, and perhaps another in the bethnal green botherer.

yeah we know the cries of murder were common, but we also know it was used as a way to call for help. and in this case, proved to be actually acurate.

[richardnunweek]

Hi If you take into consideration Mrs Praters inquest statement, in which she mentions the 'cry' sounded like 'Awakening from a nightmare', and court resident Lottie's version to Canadian journalist in which she says Kelly [ Mary] told me she had a nightmare in which she was being murdered shortly before her death, which frightened her . The Cry of 'Oh murder' would be an plausible explanation. if Kelly was having a recurrence of that dream, at 4 am . Regards Richard,

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I have always wondered if the police asked the tenants if they had heard anything in the night that was out of the ordinary like "oh, murder!" before telling them someone had been murdered? That could greatly influence their responses. The power of suggestion being strong.

c.d.

Unbeknownst to the police, who were in the habit of asking leading questions?

[Ms Diddles]

Good point. Obviously, there is no definitive answer as to how one might react or what one might say in such a situation. To my ear, "Oh, murder!" always sounded like something from a bad melodrama.

Agreed! To our 21st Century ears this sounds a really strange thing to shout, however I am sure that I've seen a thread on here somewhere where this was discussed at length.

There were numerous examples of newspaper articles referencing similar cries of "Murder!" "I am murdered!" and so on, so it seems to have been common parlance during the LVP.

[Ms Diddles]

Ha!

I had just sent my last post and immediately spotted this right at the top of the "From The Archives" section.

What are the chances?

Oh, Murder! - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums