It wasnt Kelly theory

[Abby Normal]

Following on from another post/thread

I've never understood this fascination with the 'it wasn't Kelly argument' - I suppose it helps support some daft conspiracy theory and people lap such rubbish up.

Either she was killed around 4 am, or after ~8.45. Neither of those times requires some other mystery body. I'm less inclined to believe the Lewis sighting as, unlike Maxwell, it seems he hadn't spoken to her that morning and wouldn't have known what she was wearing and could well have been mistaken. If the ripper did what he did to Eddowes in less than 10 minutes I suspect he could have carried out all those injuries to Kelly in less than half an hour, especially as he was likely concerned about being cornered in the room and 'working' quickly. He could have been out of there before 10 if it was the man Maxwell saw her with at 8.45 and they were back in her room by 9 or even 9.30.

Also depends how you view Farmer - if he was willing to try his luck in the morning in a lodging house I suspect he'd have been willing to try similar in a private room.

Hi wulfy
Lord orsam did an analysis of the Marice Lewis and maxwell sightings of Kelly, and if Im not mistaken, concluded that Lewis was not reliable and was probably parrotting maxwell and or news accounts. However, he is adament that nothing directly contradicts maxwell and there is nothing wrong with her account. of course he is correct, but in terms of when Kelly was murdered IMHO all the evidence considered and balanced I go strongly with the night time murder. one of the reasons is the big fire and burnt clothes. Surely the murderer threw the clothes in the fire-which means it must have been a big fire that needed some time to get stoked up-time that wasnt available for the daylight morning time frame.

but either way-night time or morning murder-of course it was kelly- I really do share your exaspiration with the conspiracy fringe theories on this type of stuff. theres enough mysteries and sub mysteries to this case without inventing more where there isnt any.

[Aethelwulf]

Following on from another post/thread

I go strongly with the night time murder. one of the reasons is the big fire and burnt clothes. Surely the murderer threw the clothes in the fire-which means it must have been a big fire that needed some time to get stoked up-time that wasnt available for the daylight morning time frame.

My only thought on this is that I would bet the first thing Kelly did each morning as soon as she got up was light the fire. Even just a small one to get a bit of warmth. She may have done that and then gone out, probably knowing she'd be back soon. She gets back with the ripper and the fire may well have been alight.

If it wasn't for the 4 am 'murder' cry I'd definitely be of the opinion it happened between 9 and 10, but then I also find it very difficult to dismiss Maxwell's conversation. Even if she had only talked to her a couple of times, she must have seen her loads of times going in and out of the court, as she said. There are loads of people on my street that I've only ever talked to a couple of times, but I still know their names and could easily identify them at a glance.

As you know, I'm very strongly of the opinion Farmer was a botched attempt, and that puts a different light on the morning ToD.

[Ms Diddles]

Following on from another post/thread



Hi wulfy
Lord orsam did an analysis of the Marice Lewis and maxwell sightings of Kelly, and if Im not mistaken, concluded that Lewis was not reliable and was probably parrotting maxwell and or news accounts. However, he is adament that nothing directly contradicts maxwell and there is nothing wrong with her account. of course he is correct, but in terms of when Kelly was murdered IMHO all the evidence considered and balanced I go strongly with the night time murder. one of the reasons is the big fire and burnt clothes. Surely the murderer threw the clothes in the fire-which means it must have been a big fire that needed some time to get stoked up-time that wasnt available for the daylight morning time frame.

but either way-night time or morning murder-of course it was kelly- I really do share your exaspiration with the conspiracy fringe theories on this type of stuff. theres enough mysteries and sub mysteries to this case without inventing more where there isnt any.

Hi Abby!

I've stated on here before that Maxwell's testimony is one of the facets of this case that really fascinates me.

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I just can't get away from the fact that I find her utterly credible.

She was challenged by the coroner but stood firm, and I believe Abberline stated that she was of good character and not an obvious attention seeker (and I'm sure he would know one of those when he came across them).

He may be a questionable witness, but Lewis corroborates her and I believe the shop keeper was able to verify the day.

The idea that she got the wrong day holds little water.

I think there is a possibility that the person who she believed was MJK was infact another woman who sometimes stayed with Mary in 13 Miller's Court, but I'm not entirely convinced of that either.

There is the possibility of the later time of murder which, whilst not impossible I find unlikely.

It pains me to say it but on balance I lean towards the body in Miller's Court not being that of the woman known as MJK.

Yep, I know that throws up a lot more problems than it solves:


Who was the woman in Miller's Court?

Dunno!

What happened to the woman known as MJK?

Dunno!

Where did she go with no money?

Dunno!

Why did Joseph Barnett identify the body as being that of MJK?

Dunno!



..........You're welcome!!!!!

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby!

I've stated on here before that Maxwell's testimony is one of the facets of this case that really fascinates me.

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I just can't get away from the fact that I find her utterly credible.

She was challenged by the coroner but stood firm, and I believe Abberline stated that she was of good character and not an obvious attention seeker (and I'm sure he would know one of those when he came across them).

He may be a questionable witness, but Lewis corroborates her and I believe the shop keeper was able to verify the day.

The idea that she got the wrong day holds little water.

I think there is a possibility that the person who she believed was MJK was infact another woman who sometimes stayed with Mary in 13 Miller's Court, but I'm not entirely convinced of that either.

There is the possibility of the later time of murder which, whilst not impossible I find unlikely.

It pains me to say it but on balance I lean towards the body in Miller's Court not being that of the woman known as MJK.

Yep, I know that throws up a lot more problems than it solves:


Who was the woman in Miller's Court?

Dunno!

What happened to the woman known as MJK?

Dunno!

Where did she go with no money?

Dunno!

Why did Joseph Barnett identify the body as being that of MJK?

Dunno!



..........You're welcome!!!!!

so much for my poem on mary kelly then. ; )

[c.d.]

Throw in Occam's Razor on top of all those "dunnos" and the conclusion is that it was MJK. That should be the default position until proven otherwise.

c.d.

[Ms Diddles]

Throw in Occam's Razor on top of all those "dunnos" and the conclusion is that it was MJK. That should be the default position until proven otherwise.

c.d.

I hear you c.d.!

As a rule I always favour the simplest, least convoluted explanation of events.

This is perhaps my ripperological exception to the rule.

It is highly unlikely that we will ever be able to PROVE it from this distance (other may disagree).

I just find it extremely hard to dismiss or explain away Caroline Maxwell's testimony.

To me, it has the ring of truth despite the ramifications of that.

[Ms Diddles]

so much for my poem on mary kelly then. ; )

Oh crap!

Sorry, Abby!

I hadn't thought of that.

I liked that poem too!!!!!

Artistic license regardless of who the victim was????

[c.d.]

I just find it extremely hard to dismiss or explain away Caroline Maxwell's testimony.

To me, it has the ring of truth despite the ramifications of that.

Hello Ms. Diddles,

Yes, her testimony is a head scratcher. I have no reason to believe that she was lying. Even though she was adamant, it is still possible that she was mistaken. Doubt we will ever know.

c.d.

[mpriestnall]

"They laughed at Galileo..."

[Ms Diddles]

I just find it extremely hard to dismiss or explain away Caroline Maxwell's testimony.

To me, it has the ring of truth despite the ramifications of that.

Hello Ms. Diddles,

Yes, her testimony is a head scratcher. I have no reason to believe that she was lying. Even though she was adamant, it is still possible that she was mistaken. Doubt we will ever know.

c.d.

Oh, I acknowledge the possibility that she may have been mistaken.

It's just that on balance, I personally lean the other way.

Agreed, we are probably never going to know, frustrating though that is!

[Ms Diddles]

"They laughed at Galileo..."

Hi Martyn!

I thought you might have some input on this thread!

[Herlock Sholmes]

"They laughed at Galileo..."

Yes but that was Norman Galileo the stand up comedian for Rochdale.

[Varqm]

Can't possibly contradict Joseph Barnett, Kelly it was.

[GBinOz]

Three interesting points:

1. The police considered Millers Court to be a daylight murder.

2. Abberline questioned Maxwell and stated that he "was unable to break her".

3. Times 12 Nov 1888:
Mrs. Maxwell further stated that after that she went into Bishopsgate-street to make some purchases, and on her return saw Kelly talking to a short, dark man at the top of the court. When asked by the police how she could fix the time of the morning, Mrs. Maxwell replied, "Because I went to the milkshop for some milk, and I had not before been there for a long time, and that she was wearing a woollen cross-over that I had not seen her wear for a considerable time". On inquiries being made at the milkshop indicated by the woman her statement was found to be correct, and the cross-over was also found in Kelly's room. Another young woman, whose name is known, has also informed the police that she is positive she saw Kelly between half-past 8 and a quarter to 9 on Friday morning.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

As you know, I'm very strongly of the opinion Farmer was a botched attempt, and that puts a different light on the morning ToD.

Annie seemed quite distraught, and claimed she was attacked by Jack the Ripper, as her throat was lightly cut and bleeding. The crowds of George Street once again thought the Ripper had struck and gone free, and it wouldn't be long before panic overtook reason.

The police, however, were skeptical of her claims, as her injury was quite superficial and done with a blunt blade, quite unlike the Ripper's deep wounds with a sharp weapon. And once it was discovered that she was hiding coins in her mouth, it was concluded she had attempted to steal from the man and, once discovered, lightly brushed her own throat with a blunt knife and screamed "Murder!" at her client, accusing him of being Jack the Ripper. The man, understandably frightened due to the very salient possibility of lynching, left as quick as possible.