The coat at Miller's Court window

[DRoy]

Michael,

Since it was established before the inquest that Maria Harvey had left clothing in MJK's room and had herself stayed there a couple of nights, I'd assume that the police would have questioned her extensively. Instead of Abberline having to guess whether it was melted previously or not, who better to ask then the person who had stayed with MJK. Since there was very little furniture in the room, you could assume Maria would have noticed the kettle and its condition.

Of course this is just a guess on my part but I'd like to think the police would have asked Maria as much as they possibly could about the room and contents and therefore be able to say the melted kettle was something new.

DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

Since it was established before the inquest that Maria Harvey had left clothing in MJK's room and had herself stayed there a couple of nights, I'd assume that the police would have questioned her extensively. Instead of Abberline having to guess whether it was melted previously or not, who better to ask then the person who had stayed with MJK. Since there was very little furniture in the room, you could assume Maria would have noticed the kettle and its condition.

Of course this is just a guess on my part but I'd like to think the police would have asked Maria as much as they possibly could about the room and contents and therefore be able to say the melted kettle was something new.

DRoy

Thats a good effort DRoy, but what if when Maria last saw it the spout was attached but as a result of the overheating Ive suggested when Mary went to put the kettle on when she came home the spout detached.

My real point here is that there is no reason to suspect that a large fire was responsible for the spout being detached, because we dont know the condition of the kettle before any fire that night..unless your correct in guessing that Maria was asked about it, something I seriously doubt myself, probably not on the list of things the police wanted to speak with her about,....and it was probably repeated overuse that caused the melted solder anyway.

Also be advised that Maria left that room for good on the 3rd, anytime she had been back there was to visit, not to sleep over. So technically.. she was not around most of that time. The police wouldnt be able to learn Marys activities the past few days from Maria, but they could learn about the last day from her. Maria was with Mary in her room all afternoon on the 8th.

Its one reason I suggest they may have been doing that washing and folding that afternoon....and why I suggested the spout issue may have resulted from those multiple heatings over the fire for hot water.

All the best.

[Phil H]

Do we know where the kettle was in relation to the fire - or fireplace?

If, as some have reasoned, Kelly's room was the kitchen of the original larger house, then the fireplace might have comprised a "kitchen range" - that is an iron grate with built-in ovens and perhaps a water heater, and the kettle MIGHT then have been on a hinged arm that could be swung over the hot coals or out into the cooler air.

I believe that there is one rather crude sketch of the far (fireplace) end of the room.

I would suggest that these might be factors which would bear on the issues being discussed.

In the meantime, while I try to find the sketch, I attach a reconstruction by Jane Coram

Phil

[Phil H]

Herewith a picture of a RANGE (with kettle) perhaps a bit posh for No 13; and

the sketch of the room I mentioned.

Phil

[richardnunweek]

Hi Michael,
Just to point out that Mrs Harvey did stay with Kelly on the Monday/Tuesday night[ inquest] and was with her Thursday afternoon,
As you have pointed out , it is entirely plausible that the damage to the kettle was not known by Mrs H, and melted after she left Kelly that afternoon, but that is not what I would personally subscribe to.
Regards Richard.

[Phil H]

Trying again with the sketch:

[richardnunweek]

Hi DRoy,
The press reports[ Casebook] should reveal the source I was referring to, about the residents of the court concern.I will dig it out for you in the morning.
I doubt McCarthy senior would be mistaken for a youth, I believe he was somewhat older then Dew himself.
I have had a inkling for some time that the events in informing the police, were not exactly as stated, I believe that young McCarthy, was sent to the police station followed by Bowyer, whilst his father remained outside the crime scene.
It seems inconceivable that he would abandon that position , and as urgency was a premium, why send a slower messenger.?
Regards Richard.

[Bridewell]

I have always had reservations about McCarthy sending the elderly Bowyer to fetch the police, when he had a fitter , more sprightly 14 year old son close at hand

Do we know that Bowyer was 'elderly'? How old was he? He was drawing an army pension, but that isn't really a reliable indication of great age, I would't have thought.

[Wickerman]

Room 13 was described as the parlour, that it had been the parlour for No.26 before the house was divided up with partitions.
A parlour is generally the 'best' room, reception room, where you receive guests.
Of course it may be described incorrectly.

Although the layout is not exactly that same (though similar?), No.29 Hanbury St. had the kitchen room at the back overlooking the yard.

.

[Phil H]

Room 13 was described as the parlour, that it had been the parlour for No.26 before the house was divided up with partitions.
A parlour is generally the 'best' room, reception room, where you receive guests...Of course it may be described incorrectly...
Although the layout is not exactly that same (though similar?), No.29 Hanbury St. had the kitchen room at the back overlooking the yard.

Not sure what your conclusion is here, Wickerman.

Therer was a detailed discussion of this topic on Casbook some time back (maybe on the old boards) I'll try to find it and link. My recollection is that the conclusion was that the room had probably been a kitchen (though I could well be misremembering). It would certainly be an odd place for a "parlour" in my view, which could even originally have been on the first (UK) second (US) floor at the front.

Phil

[DRoy]

Thats a good effort DRoy, but what if when Maria last saw it the spout was attached but as a result of the overheating Ive suggested when Mary went to put the kettle on when she came home the spout detached.

My real point here is that there is no reason to suspect that a large fire was responsible for the spout being detached, because we dont know the condition of the kettle before any fire that night..unless your correct in guessing that Maria was asked about it, something I seriously doubt myself, probably not on the list of things the police wanted to speak with her about,....and it was probably repeated overuse that caused the melted solder anyway.

Also be advised that Maria left that room for good on the 3rd, anytime she had been back there was to visit, not to sleep over. So technically.. she was not around most of that time. The police wouldnt be able to learn Marys activities the past few days from Maria, but they could learn about the last day from her. Maria was with Mary in her room all afternoon on the 8th.

Its one reason I suggest they may have been doing that washing and folding that afternoon....and why I suggested the spout issue may have resulted from those multiple heatings over the fire for hot water.

Michael,

You are right that I'm speculating. I only suggested Maria may have been asked about the kettle since it was brought up by Abberline at the inquest. He says that there was evidence of a large fire to go along with the melted spout evidence. Since he thought it important to mention them then you could assume he did some investigation on them. But yes, i'm just speculating.

Again, i'm assuming the policemen actually investigated and questioned witnesses when I suggest they would have asked Maria as much as they could about Mjk and her room and contents. I'd also assume they would have asked Barnett similar questions regardless of him moving out. Again, there was very little contents in the room so it wouldn't be difficult or time consuming for them to ask those who had been in the room.

Your suggestion they did laundry that afternoon makes perfect sense.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Hi DRoy,
The press reports[ Casebook] should reveal the source I was referring to, about the residents of the court concern.I will dig it out for you in the morning.
I doubt McCarthy senior would be mistaken for a youth, I believe he was somewhat older then Dew himself.
I have had a inkling for some time that the events in informing the police, were not exactly as stated, I believe that young McCarthy, was sent to the police station followed by Bowyer, whilst his father remained outside the crime scene.
It seems inconceivable that he would abandon that position , and as urgency was a premium, why send a slower messenger.?
Regards Richard.

Richard,

McCarthy could have looked young, he didn't have to be a youth to be Dew's guy. There is much discussion of Dew's recollection not being that accurate so can we say confidently that he was right in this particular circumstance?

You're young McCarthy theory would go against the statements given at the inquest. I can't see this as possible. You're also speculating that Bowyer was so old he was slow? How do we know Bowyer was slow?

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

On the issue of what room 13 originally was used for, it is reported that it was a parlour, just like someone mentioned earlier. You have to keep in mind that the primary door to access the house was inside the archway leading to the courtyard, where Elizabeth Prater goes in and up the stairs. The only Dorset facing door is to the shed, which was for the convenience of offloading and storing goods from the street.

So when people wanted to enter the house they would access that door inside the archway, and off to the left of the staircase would have been a sitting room or parlour, with a fireplace and a window to view the courtyard. When the room was segmented from the rest of the house a wall was constructed just to the left of the staircase, sealing in that room. Im not sure whether a doorway and door would have been a part of that room originally, but it was required once the room had been partitioned. The wall was comprised of old doors and re-used materials. It was plastered and papered, but Liz could see through the cracks when she went upstairs.

The idea that it would have been a kitchen is a good one since the pump is just outside and there is a sizable hearth to work with, but it is never mentioned in terms other than as a parlour to my knowledge.

Best regards

[Phil H]

You have to keep in mind that the primary door to access the house was inside the archway leading to the courtyard, where Elizabeth Prater goes in and up the stairs. The only Dorset facing door is to the shed, which was for the convenience of offloading and storing goods from the street.

I would suggest that the store was a later adaptation, made once the street had descended somewhat in the social context. Further, I would hazard that the original door was where the shed was later put.

The idea that it would have been a kitchen is a good one since the pump is just outside and there is a sizable hearth to work with, but it is never mentioned in terms other than as a parlour to my knowledge.

So where was the kitchen, in your reconstruction?

I'll try to find the earlier discussion on all this, and link to it.

Phil

[Phil H]

I have found another pic of the fireplace.