What is the 'Holy Grail' for definitively proving the identity of MJK

[Losmandris]

On this sad anniversary I was wondering what the 'holy grail' for once and for all proving the identity of MJK could be? Is it finding some incontrovertible evidence for her in the census, DNA or a family heirloom turning up or some up to now hidden piece of evidence from the police? Or does proof simply not exist and never shall?

As much as it grieves me to say, I don't imagine this mystery will ever be solved.

Thoughts?

Tristan

[DJA]

Forget Ireland and Wales. She has not turned up there.

Her being 25 is not etched in stone.

Have a look at events leading up to Section 11 in 1885,which is also the time frame leading up to her leaving the GAY house.

Search Censuses and birth/baptism records. When you think you have found her,see if she exists after 1888.

Have a good look at the evidence from the double event.

You'll find her,if you look.

[MrBarnett]

On this sad anniversary I was wondering what the 'holy grail' for once and for all proving the identity of MJK could be? Is it finding some incontrovertible evidence for her in the census, DNA or a family heirloom turning up or some up to now hidden piece of evidence from the police? Or does proof simply not exist and never shall?

As much as it grieves me to say, I don't imagine this mystery will ever be solved.

Thoughts?

Tristan

The late Chris Scott once described Alice McKenzie as being ‘as impervious to research as Mary Kelly.’ Now we know the broad outline of her life and a fair bit of detail from before she wound up in Spitalfields.

In Alice’s case the mystery was all down to the use of an assumed name(s) and, it would seem, a certain reticence about her background.

Who knows, one day a press report or some other document may pop up that solves the mystery of MJK.

[Michael W Richards]

Forget Ireland and Wales. She has not turned up there.

Her being 25 is not etched in stone.

Have a look at events leading up to Section 11 in 1885,which is also the time frame leading up to her leaving the GAY house.

Search Censuses and birth/baptism records. When you think you have found her,see if she exists after 1888.

Have a good look at the evidence from the double event.

You'll find her,if you look.

Dozens, literally dozens of people have researched tirelessly to find this woman based on her given story, so Im sure your correct in that as it has been given, it isnt going to be found in Welsh or Irish birth records.

[erobitha]

MJK was almost certainly using an assumed name.

I know DJA believes he has found her, but then so do others include myself.

The Mary I found was Welsh with links to Limerick. Much of the information she gave to Barnett and others definitely look like they had some grains of truth but without a conclusive DNA link I don't think we will ever know for certain. I haven't followed the geneology line from her siblings to modern day, but that will be a longer project.

[DJA]

The Mary I found was Welsh with links to Limerick. Much of the information she gave to Barnett and others definitely look like they had some grains of truth but without a conclusive DNA link I don't think we will ever know for certain. I haven't followed the geneology line from her siblings to modern day, but that will be a longer project.

Any record of yours being alive after 1888?

[erobitha]

Any record of yours being alive after 1888?

The problem I have is the name I have for her is quite common, so I cannot conclusively rule out she may appear somewhere after 1888 - but I do lose track of her in the census records in 1881.

Again, none of this will ever be proven conclusively without DNA that is reliable. I’m very surprised you believe that you can claim yours was definitely not alive post 1888.

[Prosector]

I think most of you are familiar with my theory that she may have been my great aunt Elizabeth Weston Davies. You are probably also aware that I obtained provisional agreement from the Ministry of Justice to exhume the body in Leytonstone Catholic cemetery, the proviso being that I also obtain permission from the cemetery owner, the Secular Clergy Common Fund, which is not forthcoming. An extensive survey was carried out by Leicester University in 2015 which concluded that there was at least a fair chance that the grave marked Marie Jeanette Kelly was the correct one and that is supported by David Andersen who probably knows more about the location of the grave than anyone else. Without an exhumation there will not be DNA and, even then, a very good chance that it will prove nothing.

Like many others, I have carried out extensive BMD research for both Mary Jane Kelly and Elizabeth Weston Davies (or Craig as she was after 1884) but have found nothing after 1884. When Francis Craig died in 1903 he was intestate and the UK government Bona Vacantia Division advertised in the national press for any possible claimants to his estate (of which Elizabeth would have been one) but no-one came forward.

I'm willing to support anyone who could help in getting an exhumation. it's a very slim chance but, I think, one worth attempting.

Prosector

[Losmandris]

I think most of you are familiar with my theory that she may have been my great aunt Elizabeth Weston Davies. You are probably also aware that I obtained provisional agreement from the Ministry of Justice to exhume the body in Leytonstone Catholic cemetery, the proviso being that I also obtain permission from the cemetery owner, the Secular Clergy Common Fund, which is not forthcoming. An extensive survey was carried out by Leicester University in 2015 which concluded that there was at least a fair chance that the grave marked Marie Jeanette Kelly was the correct one and that is supported by David Andersen who probably knows more about the location of the grave than anyone else. Without an exhumation there will not be DNA and, even then, a very good chance that it will prove nothing.

Like many others, I have carried out extensive BMD research for both Mary Jane Kelly and Elizabeth Weston Davies (or Craig as she was after 1884) but have found nothing after 1884. When Francis Craig died in 1903 he was intestate and the UK government Bona Vacantia Division advertised in the national press for any possible claimants to his estate (of which Elizabeth would have been one) but no-one came forward.

I'm willing to support anyone who could help in getting an exhumation. it's a very slim chance but, I think, one worth attempting.

Prosector

I really wish you the best of luck with this. If you do get permission, I think it will be a real challenge to actually locate her body, that said it would be worth trying as i think it is such an interesting enterprise. If you did get permission, would there be anyway or means of identifying the remains. With your professional hat on, do you think their would be any markings or damage to the bones as a result of the murder?

Tristan

[DJA]

The problem I have is the name I have for her is quite common, so I cannot conclusively rule out she may appear somewhere after 1888 - but I do lose track of her in the census records in 1881.

Again, none of this will ever be proven conclusively without DNA that is reliable. I’m very surprised you believe that you can claim yours was definitely not alive post 1888.

Now show us yours

[Prosector]

In answer to Tristan - yes, if a coffin with remains including bones is found (and the ground penetrating radar suggests that the coffin in that grave is in reasonable condition) then I think that the Bond autopsy report suggests that there would be sufficient knife marks on the femur and the cervical vertebra to match them with MJK's skeleton. Possibly on the facial bones as well. The soft tissues would have long since disappeared. DNA would need to be obtained from teeth. If there are any teeth there would be about a 50% chance of obtaining mitochondrial DNA. And David, I don't claim that Elizabeth W D was definitely not alive after 1888, just that I haven't been able to find her in the records (and nor has anyone else as far as I know) and the family lost track of her after her marriage to Craig in 1884 except for, I believe, her brother Johnto.

[Losmandris]

In answer to Tristan - yes, if a coffin with remains including bones is found (and the ground penetrating radar suggests that the coffin in that grave is in reasonable condition) then I think that the Bond autopsy report suggests that there would be sufficient knife marks on the femur and the cervical vertebra to match them with MJK's skeleton. Possibly on the facial bones as well. The soft tissues would have long since disappeared. DNA would need to be obtained from teeth. If there are any teeth there would be about a 50% chance of obtaining mitochondrial DNA. And David, I don't claim that Elizabeth W D was definitely not alive after 1888, just that I haven't been able to find her in the records (and nor has anyone else as far as I know) and the family lost track of her after her marriage to Craig in 1884 except for, I believe, her brother Johnto.

I don't suppose there are any other potential leads for the DNA? Has anyone traced 'their' Mary to people around today?

Tristan

[jmenges]

Wynne- The University of Leicester’s report makes it clear that the coffin detected by Ground Penetrating Radar was put in the ground in the mid-20th century.

JM

[DJA]

David, I don't claim that Elizabeth W D was definitely not alive after 1888, just that I haven't been able to find her in the records (and nor has anyone else as far as I know) and the family lost track of her after her marriage to Craig in 1884 except for, I believe, her brother Johnto.

No problems there Wynne.
I was replying to another poster.
Know people in that industry.Understand.

Found a couple of likely relatives here in Oz.
Would you like me to ring them some weekend?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Wynne- The University of Leicester’s report makes it clear that the coffin detected by Ground Penetrating Radar was put in the ground in the mid-20th century.

JM

The Leicester Uni study made it pretty clear that finding her was near impossible. Which is unfortunate, because Dr Wynne's research was solid, and definitely a good candidate. As you would know of course, having interviewed him!

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