Who was the other man.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
One of the less discussed [ if ever] aspects of the case, is the funeral of Mary Kelly, and the actual service.
I promise no mention of ''Grave spitting'', but I ask the important question, ''Who was the other man''
We know the amount of mourners that attended the private service[ graveside] they consisted of the female inquest witnesses, which one can hazard a guess as .
Mrs Prater,
Mrs Cox,
Mrs Harvey.
Mrs Maxwell
Lizzie Albrook
The sixth being a female representative of the landlord[ Mrs M perhaps?]
One of the men was obviously Barnett, but the other could be amongst the following.
Dan Barnett, Joseph Fleming, Morganstone, one of Kelly's brothers, the mysterious Mr Lawrence, or of course the clergyman, the latter is eliminated owing to the wrong clothing depicted...although I should point out that he was referred to as a ''giant of a man'', which if one looks at the sketch may well depict the man to the front as being quite large ,, and 6'7'' Fleming would have fitted that description...
I consider the other man to be a important point , as albeit ''it never happened'' [the grave spitting] but if it did, we certainly would have another suspect apart from Barnett.
Regards Richard.

[Phil H]

You have named most of the possibilities, Richard. It could have been any of them, or someone else. Whoever they were no one seems to have taken much notice.

In any case, unless some other account of the funeral emerges, speculation apart, how could we ever know for certain. As your post indicates, we don't even know all the women mourners beyond doubt.

We know of Fleming, and morganstone because they were mentioned by Mary, but she may have had (probably did have) many (?) other lovers of whom we have now no knowledge and who may have been fond of her.

Incidentally, why do you exclude Hutchinson who seems to have regarded himself as a "friend" of the deceased?

P.S. Can you please remind me about "the mysterious Mr Lawrence" - I have tried looking him up with with no success.

Phil H

[richardnunweek]

Hello Phil,
''The star Nov 9th'' Mrs Hewitts account.
Richard.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Richard,

As stupid as this might sound.. don't the police always send someone along to funerals of murder victims? A detective perhaps?

Just a thought.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil H]

This one then?

A woman named Mrs. Hewitt, living at 25, Dorset-street, supplied our reporter with some information. She said she was up till twelve o'clock last night. She heard nothing. Her husband was up at four o'clock each morning, and he heard nothing of a disturbing character. At eleven o'clock this morning she had occasion to look out of the window which affords a view of the court; but she could see nothing. At about half-past eleven she heard the shouts of a mob, and she then discovered that a horrible murder - it makes me shiver to think of it, she said - had been committed. She also stated that a man - a drover - called on her some time ago. He asked her if a summons came in

THE NAME OF LAWRENCE

to accept it. This man Lawrence, she says, she believes lived with the dead woman. He was off and on in London, sometimes being absent for five or six weeks.

Of course, it could be a misunderstanding of Barnett, or like the child MJK is supposed to have had, a myth or a mix-up. Interesting though - I had completely missed that.

Phil H

[Supe]

PhilH,

Just to add to the confusion, some early newspaper reports identified the murdered woman as Mary Jane Lawrence.

Don.

[miss marple]

There actually was a Mary Lawrence in the 1891 census age about 42 living at 52 Flower and Dean St, born in Cork, described as dressmaker.
There were so many people crowded together in the lodging houses of Spitalfields, than many misidentifications must have taken place.
There are well over a thousand Mary Lawrences in the 1891 census, so don't get excited.

Miss Marple

[Phil H]

I wasn't getting excited.

As I said in my post: "Of course, it could be a misunderstanding of Barnett, or like the child MJK is supposed to have had, a myth or a mix-up."

My asking about it was simply that somehow I had either missed the Lawrence quotation, or not registered it.

Thanks for all the details though, much appreciated.

Phil H

[miss marple]

I was not referring specifically to you Phil, just general irony. Everything about MK leads to a thousand paths to follow, was she Kelly, Davies, Mccarthy, Williams or Lawrence or other? Was she irish, welsh or cockney? She has led us down roads and into blank walls and we will never find her.

Miss Marple

[Phil H]

She has led us down roads and into blank walls and we will never find her.

And I believe that was deliberate: that she did have something to hide.

Though maybe she just wanted to surround herself with an air of mystery, and embroidered a past that was more "interesting" than her own.

I could quite believe it that she told some this (I have a child?) or that (a past lover abuses me?) to gain sympathy, credit etc.

Maybe one day, eternal optimist that I am, there will be a break-through.

Phil H

[Michael W Richards]

Hi,
One of the less discussed [ if ever] aspects of the case, is the funeral of Mary Kelly, and the actual service.
I promise no mention of ''Grave spitting'', but I ask the important question, ''Who was the other man''
We know the amount of mourners that attended the private service[ graveside] they consisted of the female inquest witnesses, which one can hazard a guess as .
Mrs Prater,
Mrs Cox,
Mrs Harvey.
Mrs Maxwell
Lizzie Albrook
The sixth being a female representative of the landlord[ Mrs M perhaps?]
One of the men was obviously Barnett, but the other could be amongst the following.
Dan Barnett, Joseph Fleming, Morganstone, one of Kelly's brothers, the mysterious Mr Lawrence, or of course the clergyman, the latter is eliminated owing to the wrong clothing depicted...although I should point out that he was referred to as a ''giant of a man'', which if one looks at the sketch may well depict the man to the front as being quite large ,, and 6'7'' Fleming would have fitted that description...
I consider the other man to be a important point , as albeit ''it never happened'' [the grave spitting] but if it did, we certainly would have another suspect apart from Barnett.
Regards Richard.

I would imagine that a possible for this person Richard could be Daniel Barnett, since we have a witness, (Bowyer), who saw Mary with Daniel earlier that fatal week.

Cheers

[richardnunweek]

Hi Michael,
I would agree with you , that the most likely second man was brother Dan, if only as a supporter for poor Joseph.
He did allegedly spend some time with Mary on the night of her death , but was never asked to confirm that to the media.
One would imagine that he knew Kelly well, and would have been friends, it is a bit spooky that he along with Fleming and Hutchinson shared the same lodging house[ Victoria home].
I am still suspicious of the term ''Giant of a man'' which was interpreted to Father Columbran , what if that was muddled with the second mourner, a certain Fleming?
Regards Richard.

[Chava]

I don't think there's anything necessarily suggestive in MJK fudging her name and identity. These women all seemed to have at least a couple of noms-de-guerre which they used for pawn shops, police business etc. MJK could have owed money to one landlord under one name, so moves on and hesto-presto rents premises under another name. So she can't be found to pay the money she owes. "Kelly" does sound like a common choice of pseudonym. Catherine Eddowes used it as well.

As for the affecting story about the her young Welsh love killed down the mine, unfortunately so many young men and boys lost their lives in mining disasters around this time that it would be completely believable as well as very sad and worth the price of a tot of gin to cheer the widow up...