Room 13 Miller's Court

[The Grave Maurice]

Prater didn't reject the possibility that a copper could have been in Miller's Court

Sorry, I meant to say Cox, not Prater. Didn't catch it in time to do an edit.

[Nemo]

It is uncertain whether Kitty Ronan's room was in 26 Dorset St or in No.12 at the other side of the pump from Mary's room.

There is a report which stated Prater's room overlooked Dorset St

I am pretty certain that Prater's room cannot conclusively be placed over No.13

Why would early press reports state that a number of residents of the court heard the "Murder" cry at 2am and Prater when asked said she had heard nothing?

[Dave O]

Hi Rob,

I believe the source is Chris Scott's transcription of the Whitechapel Infirmary records? That puts Bushman there in June 1888, I think. I don't know whether there is anything putting her there in November. I didn't look up Clark.

[robhouse]

Well Simon,

My only source for this is Jane Coram, and she admitted she can't remember where she got it from... so take it with a grain of salt. Maybe someone can enlighten us all...

Rob H

[Simon Wood]

Hi Rob,

It's true. You learn something every day.

Honest to God, I've been at this lark for thirty five years but have never before heard of John Clark and Elizabeth Bushman living at 7 & 8 Millers Court.

Thanks.

Regards,

Simon

[robhouse]

Hi Jane,

thanks for the info. I have updated the map with your suggestions.

Rob H

[robhouse]

Yes Dave,

That makes sense, and I apparently misunderstood what you meant by deposition (I mistook the deposition for the police statements.) So yes your point is well taken. I am still not sure I agree with your conclusion that the deposition would be more accurate hat the press accounts however (and I do not have the Ultimate with me at the moment), but in my recollection, the most detailed versions were in the Daily Telegraph and the Morning Advertiser. These also tended to include the Coroner's questions, so the responses (in my opinion) would tend to be closer to what actually came out of the witnesses' mouths.

I can compare these closer when I get home... but if you are to compare the Daily Telegraph and the Morning Advertiser versions, they are rather close... and both are more detailed (if I remember correctly) than the depositions. Also, I do not think the Morning Advertiser and Daily Telegraph versions were copies of each other. So how is it that these versions (if they indeed contain more detail and more information than the depositions) could be LESS accurate than the depositions?

Unless of course the D. Telegraph and M. Advertiser just made up words that the witnesses said. But I think reading the accounts, and comparing them, it seems (to me anyways) that this is not the case.

Again, I think you need to actually compare all the accounts. Again I take your point... in theory the depositions should be more accurate. In practice, I do not think they are.

Rob H

[The Grave Maurice]

Where were all the local cops on the morning of 9th November?
PS. Expect a post from Sam Flynn re: the location of Prater's room.

Simon,

You raise a good point which I've thought about a few times myself. This was the only example among the C5 where a policeman wasn't at least in the vicinity at the time of the murder. We often hear that the police avoided Dorset Street, or would patrol it only in pairs, yet Prater didn't reject the possibility that a copper could have been in Miller's Court, alone, in the early morning. Had all the local patrolmen been assigned to other duties that day because of the Lord Mayor's celebration?

And I think Sam pretty much shot his bolt on this topic the last time it came up. I imagine that he won't want to get involved in it again---although he might pop by to tell us both to stay on topic.

[Jane Coram]

Sorry ps

Sorry, me again,

The building at the end where you have the question mark was almost certainly the 3 privys for the residents of the court in part and the rest of it, I just have down as 'unoccupied in 1888', so probably a storage place or empty dwelling at
the time of the murder.

xxxxxx

[Dave O]

Hi again Rob,

Just to add--you write "It still seems best to read a number of reports, including the official report and the witness deposition, and then analyze them as a whole, in an attempt to arrive at what the witness actually said. For example, most reports (including the official report) leave out the questions asked by the Coroner, the Jury etc."

I agree with you wholeheartedly, and I think the press reports of inquests are generally very good since court was open and the press could be there, hear testimony, and take notes. With Baxter's depositions gone, we have a lot of reason to be thankful that the inquests were open and that the press covered them in detail. But I would just add that when we have the depositions, or faithful transcriptions of them in Sourcebook, where the press reports conflict on a detail that's in a sworn deposition from the coroner's court, I would place more emphasis on the deposition for the reasons I gave in my first post.

[Jane Coram]

Residents Miller's Court

Hi,

I think that map looks spot on, just about the best I've seen of the court.

The only other info I have that isn't on there is that there was a man engaged as a market porter in room 3 (downstairs rooms) which came from a Daily Telegraph, although I don't know which one. I've got a John Clark, in downstairs rooms 7 - couldn't tell you where I got that from, but I think it's accurate, and an Elizabeth Bushman above him in number 8 - I haven't got a clue where I got that from either!

Not much help I know as I can't source them, but someone might know where they came from!

I'm still uncertain as to where Liz Prater was exactly, but I would tend to go with the majority of the reports that say she was directly over Mary.

There is a newspaper sketch of Kitty Ronan's murder somewhere on the boards here (there was anyway) and it seems to suggest that the door to Liz's room was on the left of the staircase, which would put her directly above Mary. Of course we all know what newspaper sketches can be like, but it does agree with most of the reports.

Hugs

Jane

xxxxx

[Simon Wood]

Hi Rob,

Regarding the coroner's mythical policeman in Millers Court, I think it's fascinating how not one beat constable was summoned to the inquest.

Where were all the local cops on the morning of 9th November?

Regards,

Simon

PS. Expect a post from Sam Flynn re: the location of Prater's room.

[Dave O]

Hi Rob,

I'm not sure I'm following and this is probably my fault. The depositions are the inquest testimony, either sworn or affirmed in court, so that is what I'm talking about, not the police statements. I do not have photocopies (which is a big fat hole in my studies that I intend to remedy soon as it's best to refer to something as close to original as you can get). Stewart's scan is a detail from Prater's inquest deposition, given in court, and not the police statement. So it was at the inquest that Prater said she lived above Mary Kelly. The police statements that you mention at the beginning of the chapter in Sourcebook, if I understand correctly, are also included in the files of the inquest--if you look at the chapter notes, you will see that they are to be found in the same file. But those were done by the police on a totally different occasion, before the inquest. I assume that the reason that they appear in the inquest files is because they were supplied to Macdonald by Abberline so he could decide who to have testify, i.e. they are the basis for the later inquest and these copies of the statements (I do not think they are original) were retained by the coroner.

Does that make sense, or have I totally misunderstood you? If I have, please accept my apology in advance and sort me out

Yes indeed, John Bennett, though I wasn't aware of some those those. I believe the Irish Times also refers to Sarah Lewis and Great Powell street.

[robhouse]

Hmm, it seems I may be altering my original idea, since the majority of the press versions I have seen DO in fact say Prater lived over Kelly's room. See below:

Elizabeth Prater said-My husband is a boot machinist, but he has deserted me this five years. I live in No. 20 Room, Miller's-court, and the deceased lived below me. - Daily News

Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, said: My husband, William Prater, was a boot machinist, and he has deserted me. I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below. - Daily Telegraph

Elizabeth Prater, wife of William Prater, said - I was deserted by my husband five years ago. I live at No. 20, in Miller's-court. - Morning Advertiser

Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist living in No 20 Room, Miller's court, said that the deceased lived in the room below her. - St James Gazette

Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, living apart from her husband, said she occupied No. 20 room, Miller's-court, her room being just over that occupied by the deceased. If deceased moved about in her room much witness could hear her. - Times


In any case, I still stand by my original statement... that the press versions of the inquest might be as accurate as the officially transcribed version.

It still seems best to read a number of reports, including the official report and the witness deposition, and then analyze them as a whole, in an attempt to arrive at what the witness actually said. For example, most reports (including the official report) leave out the questions asked by the Coroner, the Jury etc. Also, some versions are not transcribed in the first person, but rather the third person.

So for example: in Mary Ann Cox's testimony, when she mentions hearing a man leave at 5:45, she was asked a number of questions (as reported in the Telegraph)

At a quarter-past six I heard a man go down the court. That was too late for the market.

From what house did he go ? - I don't know.

Did you hear the door bang after him ? - No.

Then he must have walked up the court and back again? - Yes.

It might have been a policeman ? - It might have been.

The Morning Advertiser wrote this as "I heard a man go out at 6.15. He might have gone out and come back again for all I know. It might have been a policeman." This seems to imply (wrongly) that Cox thought the man might have been a policeman, when in fact she was simply responding to that suggestion asked by the Coroner.

The Daily News wrote this exchange as "In the morning about a quarter-past six I heard a man go out of the court, but I do not know who he was."

The times wrote "Witness could not sleep, and heard a man go out of the court about a quarter past 6. It might have been a policeman for all witness knew."



Rob H

[Simon Wood]

Hi John,

I think we can count the name Walter Purkiss as correct.

Here he is from The Times, 3rd March 1880—



Regards,

Simon