Room 13 Miller's Court

[Simon Wood]

Hi Michael,

This is the drawing of "the shed" I mentioned. It's from the 17th November 1888 Pictorial News.



Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

This is the drawing of "the shed" I mentioned. It's from the 17th November 1888 Pictorial News.

Thanks, Simon. Evidently boarded up - probably to deter would-be smash'n'grab raids on McCarthy's goods and chattels.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Sam,

If 26 Dorset Street was the same in 1888 as it was in 1929, how did McCarthy get costermonger barrows through the door into his re-purposed lounge?

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Simon,

If 26 Dorset Street was the same in 1888 as it was in 1929, how did McCarthy get costermonger barrows through the door into his re-purposed lounge?

Costers' barrows were quite narrow. I posted a link to one up for sale a few pages back in this thread. 'Twas only about two feet wide and 7 feet long - about the dimensions of an upright piano, but nowhere near as tall or as heavy. Given that furniture-removers move pianos in and out of terraced houses via the front door, it wouldn't have been particularly difficult to treat a barrow in a similar fashion.

[perrymason]

I think that artists rendering Simon is more of what I'd expect to see, based on the minimal descriptions of that area that are available.

And my very best to you and everyone for the Holidays....it seems like its been a long year, we could use some cheer right about now.

And now, "god rest me Merry Gentlemen"...

Adieu, pour le moment.

[Chava]

Hi Chava

I might be wrong but I think that the passage was there all along, probably designed as a tradesman's entrance. If you look at the 1928 photos taken from Dorset Street showing the frontages of #26 and #27 you'll see that the upper floor windows are spaced differently, indicating that the two houses were not an exact mirror image of each other, with the upper floors of #27 being 3 foot wider than those of #26, that is occupying the space taken up on the ground floor by the arched passageway.

Thanks, Stephen. I couldn't make sense of that alleyway, but a tradesmen's entrance would work. If that's the case, then Kelly's door would be original. You'd expect tradesmen and delivery men to use the back door, and there it is, handy to requirements.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

"[Millers] court contains six houses, and is about 50 feet long, 5 feet 6 inches wide at the north end, and 17 feet 10 inches wide at the south end, and is approached by a covered entrance 26 feet 4 inches long and 2 feet 10 inches wide. At the north end of the court there are three public privies, and at the south end there is a public dust-bin."

Whitechapel Board of Works Annual Report 1878.

Regards,

Simon

[perrymason]

Hi All,

"[Millers] court contains six houses, and is about 50 feet long, 5 feet 6 inches wide at the north end, and 17 feet 10 inches wide at the south end, and is approached by a covered entrance 26 feet 4 inches long and 2 feet 10 inches wide. At the north end of the court there are three public privies, and at the south end there is a public dust-bin."

Whitechapel Board of Works Annual Report 1878.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

The part I put in bold caught my eye, this would be "public" in the sense that all court residents shared the use of them,...or would that be open to the "public"?

Best regards Simon.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Michael,

I would think in this sense that "public" meant "for the use of the Millers Court residents", though I'm certain non-residents often availed themselves.

Regards,

Simon

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

I would think in this sense that "public" meant "for the use of the Millers Court residents", though I'm certain non-residents often availed themselves.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

My question was because AP has been looking into Public Urinals as relates to murder sites recently...seems like this one might be included.

All the best Simon.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

There's a wee () difference between a "urinal provided for public use" and a "private lavatory that might be used by members of the public in an unsanctioned manner".

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,

There's a wee () difference between a "urinal provided for public use" and a "private lavatory that might be used by members of the public in an unsanctioned manner".

Quite so Sam...you know that brings up another little niggle of mine, were there public sinks, or wells with pumps with the loo's, could someone wash up in one?

All the best Sam.

[Jay Batsford]

I believe that i have a good explanation as to how Barnett undid the lock through the window! My home in the black country is of the same period as the picture mine being built in 1868 the door is only by my understanding of living in a house of the period 6ft 4" high! the length of the bricks from the outside corner of the wall to the door frame would be no more than 1ft long take into account that the depth of the window frame is 3 inches lower sill and 2 inches upper sill means that the frame was set 5 inches into the brick work! the hight of the frame is equal to the hight of the door but the broken pane of glass is in the top right corner and about 4ft from the floor! the bricks comprising the corner of the building are doubled and each brick is from my measurements is half its length wide and depth which means that two bricks set length ways to the door would measure 12 inches wide so the door column was 1ft sq! If the lock was on the top right hand corner of the door then somebody of average hight would have had no difficulty opening the door from the inside! Plus please draw your attention to the scuff marks on the iron drain pipe which looks as if persons both past and present to the pic had had to hold onto the pipe while placing maybe there left knee onto the window ledge to lean if they weren't of a certain hight like a woman perhaps? please feel free to comment!!!!

[Supe]

Simon,

I would think in this sense that "public" meant "for the use of the Millers Court residents", though I'm certain non-residents often availed themselves.

Gee whiz, because of the strange (to American ears) meaning of "public schools" I always thought that a public urinal was only for use by graduate Etonians and Harrovians.

Don.

[robhouse]

I just thought I would post this image of Miller's Court as I am trying to diagram where the witnesses were living. If anyone has feedback let me know.


Julia Venturnay was opposite Kelly's room, and above her I believe was Mrs. Keyler, where Sarah Lewis was visiting. The last house on the left was Mary Ann Cox, in number 5, which (I believe) was the ground floor..

Elizabeth Prater was above Mary Kelly, in No 20 Millers Ct, which was either in the front or the back of the building...

And (I hate to bring this up again), but I am still unclear on whether she was in the front or back or where she was. I have seen Stewart's post noting the official statement saying she lived over the deceased's room. It was also pointed out (by Sam Flynn) that the Daily Telegraph on Nov 10 stated that Prater was "the occupant of the first floor front room".

However, I dont think it was mentioned that the Daily Telegraph report AFTER the inquest (from Nov 13) has Prater saying:

"I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below."

The official transcription of the inquest (image posted by SPE) held at the Greater London Record Office was also transcribed on the day of the inquest. "I live at No 20 Room in Millers Court up stairs I lived in the room over where deceased lived."

In all honesty, I am not sure which version should be considered more accurate, since both versions are basically (in my understanding) summarized transcripts of what was actually said.

In my opinion, all the inquest transcripts (including the official transcript cited above, AND the versions in the various papers should be regarded as incomplete and inaccurate in various ways). As far as I understand it, the person writing the transcipt would generally paraphrase and summarize what was actually said... often leaving out details that he deemed unimportant for whatever reason.

For example the official version of the inquest does not mention at all that Prater went into McCarthy's shop after waiting for her "young man". But several versions in the newspapers note that she said she did.

The Morning Advertiser, as another example, does not mention at all that Prater lived above Mary Kelly, but just says "I live at No. 20, in Miller's-court."

In other words, I do not see that the official version is necessarily more accurate than the others. I think to get a good idea of what was actually said, you must read a number of versions, and cross-reference and analyze them carefully.

(Incidentally, in general I think the most accurate version of the inquest, appears to be in fact the Morning Advertiser Nov 13, since seems to be the most detailed.)

Rob H