Partition wall

[Spring heeled Jim]

Thanks for the replies people all very interesting indeed.

Phil again forgive my ignorance but A-Z? I have been reading lot's of the dissertations here which are in the main superb pieces of work I just get side tracked reading too many at once so information tends to not sink in as well as it should.

Very interesting to note the possibility of antemortem wounds and the idea that she was unlikely to sleep in the state of undress in which she was found. This is the kind of stuff that although not an absolute certainty is very interesting to me and helps me try and paint a better mental picture of what may have happened.

The location of the slashes in the bed sheets does seem to suggest the could have been caused when the fatal wound/wounds were inflicted.

The oh murder cry is a strange one to me I know it was heard by at least two seemingly reliable residents of the court but it seems odd that if she was awake when killed hence the antemortem wounds that if that cry did happen and Prater heard it why was there no struggle? I am just trying to paint a mental picture of what could have happened.

And Phil I am at the moment at least trying not to even think of suspects simply to try and figure out or surmise with the information available what happened in each case regarding the circumstances of the death. I think once I have got a much better understanding of what happened and why I personally think certain things happened I can then start to think about whodunnit so to speak. At least then I won't be clouding my appraisal of a crime scene with a need or expectation of who was responsible. I hope that made sense?

As for my usage of the term JTR well its just me being sloppy and lazy I suppose as I should say the perpetrator when theorising about each individual killing.

Again great forum people so interesting!

[Phil H]

Good post Rya - in every sense.

Phil H

[Rya]

Welcome to the boards, SHJ.

A few quick thoughts on this topic, which summarize some of the comments made already:

As I understand it, Mary's room was originally part of the large ground floor area of 26 Dorset street; it may have originally been the kitchen area. At the time of the murder, the rest of the ground floor had been turned into a storage shed, so there was nobody living on the other side of the partition who would have heard any thumping against the makeshift barrier. There were people in the immediate vicinity, of course, but they denied hearing such noises.

It is also not clear how closely the bed was butted up against the partition. It was close enough to where the woman's arterial blood had sprayed up against it, but Phillips seems to have noticed the large pool of blood that had run down into the floor below the bed--did they move the bed away from the partition to observe this? The famous photo makes the perspective difficult. The exact position of her body is also unknowable when she was murdered; she may not have been able to reach the partition.

The only reported cuts in the sheeting were on the right top corner of the bed, drenched in the clotted blood from the throat wounds, which Bond makes clear caused the death of the victim. How they occurred (the cuts in the sheeting) could have come about in different ways, and a few have been suggested by different writers.

On the sleep vs awake business, it is possible that she was sleeping when attacked, but a few facts weigh against this. First, she was mostly naked when found, and it is very unlikely she would have decided to sleep nude in a 0 degree Celsius room (Prater didn't). It is more likely that she removed her clothes for sexual relations. Secondly, the defense wounds on her right hand, very typical in knife murders, were inflicted antemortem according to Bond's notes (Extravasation of blood into the surrounding tissues is a common checkpoint for determining ante versus postmortem wounds). Also, barring some idiosyncratic habit on the part of Mary, it is odd she would be found sleeping on the side of the bed by the wall. There are various explanations, but most of them involve someone else already sitting or lying on the left side of the bed.

The cry of "murder" is completely subjective--there is collaboration that it happened, but no certainty that it was Mary that uttered it. I wouldn't use it to support her being awake when she was killed, but then I find the medical evidence as we have it to indicate a much later time of death than 4 am.

Also, I would second Phil's comments about the aural environment in courts, yards, and squares at this time. You can find in virtually every murder in this series questions about the lack of attention residents, night watchmen, etc. were demonstrating while the murders were going on. I have slowly come round to thinking that a couple of these women probably made a lot more noise than we know; people most likely either were used to vocal arguments and violence in their midst and ignored it, or decided not to get involved.

[FrankO]

[B]I don't know. I have the impression from the evidence that she was attacked by sleeping and at the most managed an exclamation ("Oh, murder!!!) if that.

I think the autopsy found marks on her fingers and arms that might have been the result of her trying to protect herself, but equally could have been accidentally made by the murderer as he worked on the body.

Hi Phil & Jim,

The quote below from Dr Bond’s post mortem indeed suggests that only the cut on her right thumb and some abrasions on the same hand were inflicted during life (so, not the arms).
“The right thumb showed a small superficial incision about 1 in long, with extravasation of blood in the skin & there were several abrasions on the back of the hand moreover showing the same condition.”

Or so I’ve understood that ‘extravasation of blood in the skin’ indicates this.

The fact that she was attacked on the ‘far’ right side of the bed, the lack of more defense wounds and the lack of noise of a struggle (except for possibly the cry of murder) also make me inclined to believe she was attacked while sleeping or dozing and that the initial attack was over within seconds.

All the best,
Frank

[Phil H]

You will have to forgive my ignorance re the slashed sheet thing I have read up on the circumstances of MJK's death and done a little research but didn't happen upon or have forgotten reading this information any chance you could point me in the right direction?

The A-Z is always a good start.

Try the dissertations etc here on Casebook, also look at old threads on Mary, try a search on MJK (under various words, I suggest); or search on bed clothes/sheet/bed clothes etc and see what comes up.

Phil do you think she was asleep when it happened? The reason I am not so sure is would she sleep with a client in the room? Assuming the killer was a client I know but still do you think she would?

I don't know. I have the impression from the evidence that she was attacked by sleeping and at the most managed an exclamation ("Oh, murder!!!) if that.

I think the autopsy found marks on her fingers and arms that might have been the result of her trying to protect herself, but equally could have been accidentally made by the murderer as he worked on the body.

I am no longer certain with MJK that the killer was "Jack" or a client - I think the injuries are so personal that they suggest a very intimate connection. I think her state of undress and where she was on the bed suggest that she had a lover in bed with her. I am inclined to suspect Joe Barnett; Fleming (or Flemming) - whom it appears she was still seeing; or A N Other such as Morganstone.

Phil H

Phil L

[Spring heeled Jim]

Hi Phil thanks for the reply.

You make a very valid point regarding nobody hearing the other victims not apparently making a noise which is intriguing. Has anybody researched what actually happens to someone after having a deep throat cut regarding time to unconsciousness and any possible involuntary body movements/spasms?

You will have to forgive my ignorance re the slashed sheet thing I have read up on the circumstances of MJK's death and done a little research but didn't happen upon or have forgotten reading this information any chance you could point me in the right direction?

As for me already having set notions regarding what happened I don't I just like to question things and garner opinion regrading what actually happened. As for not wanting to research well as someone who works in a research laboratory research comes naturally but during the course of any research I do I always air ideas and talk to people with more knowledge to get a better idea of things hence my signing up here to plunder the vast knowledge of others on here

Phil do you think she was asleep when it happened? The reason I am not so sure is would she sleep with a client in the room? Assuming the killer was a client I know but still do you think she would?

[Phil H]

Intersting theory regarding her being asleep but I am seriously inclined to doubt that but don't ask me why as it would just be my own personal thoughts not based on any hard facts.

You are of course, entitled to your own view, but the shlashed sheets was, IIRC the view of men who saw and handled them.

How were the bed sheets slashed? Is it not more plausible they were slashed during the mutilation purely based on numbers of cuts?

Read the details for yuorself. You appear to want to arrive at a view and then consider the facts, so maybe research is irrelevant to you.

And why was nothing heard? The partition wall thing bothers me in a scenario where MJK is awake in bed then attacked.

If she was asleep when killed there would be no noise. None of Jack's other victims appear to have made a noise or struggled (Chapman man have murmured "No!" - if we believe Cadosche heard her and not someone else).

I cant see her not banging that wall and I am sure it would have been a noise out of the ordinary as opposed to a day to day noise. All just theory though I know just doesn't sit right with me.

Maybe it doesn't sit right because you are not drawing your conclusions from the facts, but following what you THINK might have happened.

Phil H

[Spring heeled Jim]

Intersting theory regarding her being asleep but I am seriously inclined to doubt that but don't ask me why as it would just be my own personal thoughts not based on any hard facts.

How were the bed sheets slashed? Is it not more plausible they were slashed during the mutilation purely based on numbers of cuts? Either one of the very many mutilations cuts cut the sheet or one of the very few fatal wounds. To my mind purely on stats it was the former.

And why was nothing heard? The partition wall thing bothers me in a scenario where MJK is awake in bed then attacked. I cant see her not banging that wall and I am sure it would have been a noise out of the ordinary as opposed to a day to day noise. All just theory though I know just doesn't sit right with me.

[Cogidubnus]

I'm inclined to agree with you Phil, if for no other reason that, discounting Hutch, she had previously seemed "well away" and was likely sleeping it off...

All the best

Dave

[Phil H]

Dave LOL!!

More seriously, I thought there was a view that, as the sheet was slashed, she may have been attacked while asleep.

None of "Jack's" other victims, if this was his deed, made much noise (Chapman?) or seem to have struggled.

Phil H

[Cogidubnus]

Was she subdued in bed?

Dunno... for all I know she might've been quite loud...

All the best

Dave

[Spring heeled Jim]

Phil I agree but in my mind there are the everyday noises and then others. I brought this thread up as I spent a few years living in a flat with a partition wall and the day to day noises from next door were loud but became almost background noise.

Yet if MJK was killed in her bed id expect her to struggle and kick bang the wall? And I suspect that would be loud enough to be out of the ordinary?

Was she subdued in bed?

[Phil H]

Steve is correct - there was a staircase and a cart store beyond ther partition.

I suggest that in 1888, privacy was not what we are used to today - people lived cheek by jowl. I suspect that they would ignore noises because they were used to doing so. Alcohol might laos be a factor.

After all, even a supposed cry of "Oh, murder!" didn't make anyone investigate!

Phil H

[Spring heeled Jim]

Steve I am sure you are correct given my albeit limited knowledge of the layout of 13 Mitre square but my point is the acoustics and volume of any bang on a partition wall would have been loud? Thats if it happened of course? Prater being upstairs front or back would surely have heard this?

[Steve S]

I'm sure I'll be corrected...But I think there is no-one on the other side of the partition....There's a staircase that goes up to Prater's et al..........