Partition wall

[Spring heeled Jim]

It is my understanding that the bed upon which MJK was found is lying alongside the partition wall in 13 Millers court. If this is correct and she was killed lying upon that bed then why would other occupants not have heard what happened?

What I am getting at is in my experience when it comes to sound and the result of something being banged into a partition wall if thin they seem to almost magnify noises. I know this seems an odd statement but I have lived in a flat with a partition wall and if the neighbors talked i could hear them very well and if something bumped or banged the wall it was very loud and obvious.

I find it hard to get my head around MJK being subdued/killed in bed without her struggling in some way and envisage if it happened to me I am certain one of my arms or legs would have banged the wall next to the bed.

Is it firmly established she was lying in her bed when killed? I just cant accept that if she was she didn't struggle and bang the partition wall which would have been a noise loud enough for Prater or someone else to hear in my mind.

Anyhow I am new here so please be gentle

[Hunter]

Considering what Mary Kelly's profession was supposed to be, a little banging on the wall--or even sounds of a scuffle--would not be out of place.

[Spring heeled Jim]

Agreed hunter but if I were being killed on that bed I am sure it would be more than a little bang on the wall my arm and leg were right next to. I just dont get the lack of sound considering it was I am led to believe a partition wall which in my experience seem to amplify and knock or bangs.

[miakaal4]

Hi Jim,
there is a good chance the people living on the other side were asleep or "busy" or out. Mary may have been knocked out with an arm across the throat in a very short time, making no noise at all. It is all supposition though.

[Spring heeled Jim]

Agreed Miakaal it is all supposition. Something just does not sit right with me in a scenario whereby she is attacked on the bed and does not hit the wall with either an arm or leg. Of course she could have an it was either not heard or did not create as loud a sound as I envisage but to me a thin partition wall if struck makes one hell of a noise! But thats just my experience with thin walls

[Steve S]

I'm sure I'll be corrected...But I think there is no-one on the other side of the partition....There's a staircase that goes up to Prater's et al..........

[Spring heeled Jim]

Steve I am sure you are correct given my albeit limited knowledge of the layout of 13 Mitre square but my point is the acoustics and volume of any bang on a partition wall would have been loud? Thats if it happened of course? Prater being upstairs front or back would surely have heard this?

[Phil H]

Steve is correct - there was a staircase and a cart store beyond ther partition.

I suggest that in 1888, privacy was not what we are used to today - people lived cheek by jowl. I suspect that they would ignore noises because they were used to doing so. Alcohol might laos be a factor.

After all, even a supposed cry of "Oh, murder!" didn't make anyone investigate!

Phil H

[Spring heeled Jim]

Phil I agree but in my mind there are the everyday noises and then others. I brought this thread up as I spent a few years living in a flat with a partition wall and the day to day noises from next door were loud but became almost background noise.

Yet if MJK was killed in her bed id expect her to struggle and kick bang the wall? And I suspect that would be loud enough to be out of the ordinary?

Was she subdued in bed?

[Cogidubnus]

Was she subdued in bed?

Dunno... for all I know she might've been quite loud...

All the best

Dave

[Phil H]

Dave LOL!!

More seriously, I thought there was a view that, as the sheet was slashed, she may have been attacked while asleep.

None of "Jack's" other victims, if this was his deed, made much noise (Chapman?) or seem to have struggled.

Phil H

[Cogidubnus]

I'm inclined to agree with you Phil, if for no other reason that, discounting Hutch, she had previously seemed "well away" and was likely sleeping it off...

All the best

Dave

[Spring heeled Jim]

Intersting theory regarding her being asleep but I am seriously inclined to doubt that but don't ask me why as it would just be my own personal thoughts not based on any hard facts.

How were the bed sheets slashed? Is it not more plausible they were slashed during the mutilation purely based on numbers of cuts? Either one of the very many mutilations cuts cut the sheet or one of the very few fatal wounds. To my mind purely on stats it was the former.

And why was nothing heard? The partition wall thing bothers me in a scenario where MJK is awake in bed then attacked. I cant see her not banging that wall and I am sure it would have been a noise out of the ordinary as opposed to a day to day noise. All just theory though I know just doesn't sit right with me.

[Phil H]

Intersting theory regarding her being asleep but I am seriously inclined to doubt that but don't ask me why as it would just be my own personal thoughts not based on any hard facts.

You are of course, entitled to your own view, but the shlashed sheets was, IIRC the view of men who saw and handled them.

How were the bed sheets slashed? Is it not more plausible they were slashed during the mutilation purely based on numbers of cuts?

Read the details for yuorself. You appear to want to arrive at a view and then consider the facts, so maybe research is irrelevant to you.

And why was nothing heard? The partition wall thing bothers me in a scenario where MJK is awake in bed then attacked.

If she was asleep when killed there would be no noise. None of Jack's other victims appear to have made a noise or struggled (Chapman man have murmured "No!" - if we believe Cadosche heard her and not someone else).

I cant see her not banging that wall and I am sure it would have been a noise out of the ordinary as opposed to a day to day noise. All just theory though I know just doesn't sit right with me.

Maybe it doesn't sit right because you are not drawing your conclusions from the facts, but following what you THINK might have happened.

Phil H

[Spring heeled Jim]

Hi Phil thanks for the reply.

You make a very valid point regarding nobody hearing the other victims not apparently making a noise which is intriguing. Has anybody researched what actually happens to someone after having a deep throat cut regarding time to unconsciousness and any possible involuntary body movements/spasms?

You will have to forgive my ignorance re the slashed sheet thing I have read up on the circumstances of MJK's death and done a little research but didn't happen upon or have forgotten reading this information any chance you could point me in the right direction?

As for me already having set notions regarding what happened I don't I just like to question things and garner opinion regrading what actually happened. As for not wanting to research well as someone who works in a research laboratory research comes naturally but during the course of any research I do I always air ideas and talk to people with more knowledge to get a better idea of things hence my signing up here to plunder the vast knowledge of others on here

Phil do you think she was asleep when it happened? The reason I am not so sure is would she sleep with a client in the room? Assuming the killer was a client I know but still do you think she would?