Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[lynn cates]

difficulty

Hello Jon. Thanks. Having a spot of difficulty.

You are saying that "MJK" knew Brymbo Mary and took over her bio? OK. Why?

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

Extremely unlikely she was divorced. Divorce was for the toffs.

True, but discovering that one's wife had run off to be a French prostitute is a bit extreme, and maybe someone might decide that toff or not, a divorce was in order. Heck, that might even be grounds for an annulment. Any Catholics want to weigh in?

Isn't the more credible alternative version that Bond was wrong in his estimation of the time of death? It was, at best, an approximation. That seems (to me anyway) more likely than the substitute body scenario.

This is my favorite answer. I think the TOD is wrong, and I also think the sightings are also estimates, including Bowyer's reported sighting of the body for the first time, so the window for the time between Maxwell seeing Kelly, and Bowyer finding the body may be wider than it looks if we take the reported times as exact.

We don't know just how hot the fire got, but we do know that heat speeds up rigor, so that it is possible the body was kept very warm, even at or above normal body temperature for a while, instead of beginning to drop slowly right at the onset of death. Then, as the fire died down, the body cooled, and because of the viscera being gone, it may have cooled very quickly, so that it was cooler than an intact body would be after the same amount of time.

Also, while pathologists knew about rigor, they did not apparently know the case of it. I haven't been able to find out exactly what would happen to denuded limbs, but they probably wouldn't behave exactly the way one might expect, because rigor is a muscle phenomenon, not ligament or tendon. In other words, the legs and torso might be "loose" when the body was moved, not because of lack of rigor, but because the muscle tissue had been removed.

There's really no telling how much time JTR would have needed to do what he did to the body, but the assumption that hours were required is probably wrong. Experienced butchers can take apart a cow in minutes; now, probably butchering MJK took more than "minutes," but it probably didn't take hours, either.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks. Having a spot of difficulty.

You are saying that "MJK" knew Brymbo Mary and took over her bio? OK. Why?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

I'm saying MJK and Brymbo Mary were two different people.
MJK must have known Brymbo Mary's family in Wales.

We can't possibly know why MJK chose Brymbo Mary's bio, any more than we can know why she simply did not use her own.

Doesn't it suggest to you that this girl, finding herself now in London, felt the need to change her identity?
Why risk a made up identity if she can use one she knows is real. A smart person will know, a liar needs to have a good memory, so tell the truth. MJK's "truth" was to repeat the bio of a past friend/acquaintance/relative - a person she knew.

How much embellishment MJK threw in for good measure is anybody's guess, but if those 'embellishments' actually happened to herself as MJK (not Brymbo Mary), then she is still telling the truth.

Its another way of looking at the mean evidence we have.

[Wickerman]

This is my favorite answer. I think the TOD is wrong,

Hmm, but its the measure of the error thats the problem. A professional like Bond might make an error of an hour, or two? - but I think you are suggesting an error of about 8 hours?

[Supe]

RivkahChaya,

I also think the sightings are also estimates, including Bowyer's reported sighting of the body for the first time

You can push Bowyer's sighting back a bit (which I don't think would aid your theory), but you really can't advance it by more a minute or two as the police were first mobilized shortly after 11 am.

Don.

[lynn cates]

Hubert

Hello Jon. Thanks. That helps.

So, where does that leave us? "MJK" took over Brymbo's bio and passed herself under that name. Let's accept that for a moment. After all, the story coincides with respect to geography and siblings.

I can also accept minor deletions and embellishments.

But one problem seems to occur--why not call your "father" "Hubert" and not "John"?

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi all,
If we take McCarthy's actual statement to the Times November 10 as factual, and not muddled by a reporter, then we have the following.
She came to live with a man called Kelly, a coal porter, and posed as his wife,
We then can interpret that Barnett used an alias[ which one can assume remained until Mary's death]
The first point to raise..
Was Kelly ever a coal porter, lets face it McCarthy could hardly fail to notice such a occupation.
Also why would he use the name Kelly when moving in to that room, I should add also, that she [ Mary] came to live with him, making Joe the initial person paying the rent.
I must ask the question was Mary ever a Kelly by birth , was it invented by Barnett as a alias, and she became known as Mary Kelly, and being a common law marriage, upon her death he registered her under One Marie Jeanette Kelly, using her formal married name Davis as a.k.a?
It is not inconceivable that her real name was known to the police, with sources Barnett, and McCarthy[ the latter via letters from her family] and it is entirely possible that her real identity was protected, to give her family dignity, and the reason we cannot trace her brother is because of the alias Kelly. his real name being John?.........
We have being using Mary Kelly, instead of Mary ?........
Just a Xmas thought.
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

3 points

Hello Richard.

"It is not inconceivable that her real name was known to the police . . ."

Agreed.

" . . . it is entirely possible that her real identity was protected . . ."

I daresay.

". . . to give her family dignity."

Perhaps not.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks. That helps.

So, where does that leave us? "MJK" took over Brymbo's bio and passed herself under that name. Let's accept that for a moment. After all, the story coincides with respect to geography and siblings.

I can also accept minor deletions and embellishments.

But one problem seems to occur--why not call your "father" "Hubert" and not "John"?

Cheers.
LC

The answer may be apparent if we locate her.
I wonder if the cousin was a daughter of Hubert's brother, was he named John?
That would make the cousin a true 'Kelly' - assuming MJK was this cousin, if not then I don't know.
Maybe Hubert just preferred to be known as John in Wales, part of the new life, new start, scenario. He did sign Mary Ann's marriage certificate as Hubert, this being his legal name.

Small details that appear inconsistent in the face of so many coincidences might explain themselves if she is ever located.

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Hubert

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Any indication that Hubert was EVER John?

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

" . . . it is entirely possible that her real identity was protected . . ."

I daresay.

". . . to give her family dignity."

Perhaps not.

If "dignity" means "not having the stigma of being related to either a prostitute or a Ripper victim," then I second your "Perhaps not," as that dignity was not offered to any of the other victims, and Kelly's family wasn't unusual in any way, as far as we know (or, since we can't find them, maybe they were, but it doesn't sound like it-- generally people don't boast of less than the truth); in fact, since they lived, from our best information, in Ireland, and not the near vicinity, which at least some of the family of the other victims did, if anyone's family needed protecting, it was the family of the other victims.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Any indication that Hubert was EVER John?

Cheers.
LC

At this point Lynn, I can only repeat what I wrote earlier:

"Small details that appear inconsistent in the face of so many coincidences might explain themselves if she is ever located."

Regards, Jon S.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Lynn,
It was reported that Mary's family were somewhat well off, indeed her brother allegedly was concerned, that future army prospects may be endangered , suggesting possible promotion .
I would suggest that if Mary originated from a better class, then her true identity may well have been withheld.
The ''mums the word'' theory has long been associated with JTR, right from the outset, secrecy is not dismissed..
Regards Richard.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

To address some points made, ....Jon, you seem to be on the verge of assuming that Mary Kelly likely used someone elses name and bio.....then you suggest her father comes looking for her as Mary Jane Kelly. Why would he know who she was pretending to be? And why would she create a story about a marriage and the death of her husband if she was using this brymbo Marys bio anyway? Seems to me if youre going to assume an identity with a history it will be either all made up hogwash or based on an actual persons history. You're looking for snippets of truth within what appears to be whole cloth fabrication.

Lynn, the bit about Kate.....there are only a few people to my mind that she could have been using information about Mary Kelly to bargain with....either the people who it would seem bought her drinks her last afternoon or the people who incarcerated her. Either party knew she was in a city jail, and if they knew the city law, then they knew she would be released that night. Unlike the Met regulations. I think based on that assumption, it would likely be the people she drank with that afternoon. People who were looking for Mary Kelly because of something she knew.

You asked about an overarching storyline...perhaps Mary Kelly worked as an informant to the Police, and maybe, consecutively,... for an arm of the Irish self rule factions. Perhaps she posed as a wife or girlfriend of one of the self rule folks in Paris a few years earlier. Perhaps she left because she discovered that the people she was with and were meeting were planning bombings. Perhaps instead of notifying the authorities, she fled out of fear, invented a name and identity....perhaps of someone she knew,..and she slipped up by trusting another person with that information. Perhaps the Irish anarchists are looking for her to protect themselves. Perhaps Kate learned of this story. Perhaps Kate believed that the Irish self rule people were responsible for the Ripper killings as terrorists acts....that in her mind justifies threatening to sell this Mary's whereabouts to the police,...so they can get to her and the information she possess.

Kate lets it be known on the streets that she knows where this Mary is, and she is willing to sell that to the Irish if they will pay more than the Police for that info. A meeting is arranged...she gets tanked and says too much....a followup meeting and payment amount are also discussed, later that same night around midnight. They have decided that after she tells them where Mary is they intend to off her. Fly in the ointment...she is so drunk she gets picked up after they leave the pub she gets plunked in jail. No issues though. She will be released later that same night based on City guidelines. The man meeting her is told to hang about until she arrives and then bring her into the square. When she arrives she doesnt see her liason waiting....after a few minutes he shows up and she places a hand on his chest, relieved..."I thought Id missed you".

Ill work on a more cohesive storyline...but I believe the truth will read something like this Lynn. Merry Christmas mate!!

[Wickerman]

Hello all,

To address some points made, ....Jon, you seem to be on the verge of assuming that Mary Kelly likely used someone elses name and bio.....then you suggest her father comes looking for her as Mary Jane Kelly. Why would he know who she was pretending to be? And why would she create a story about a marriage and the death of her husband if she was using this brymbo Marys bio anyway? Seems to me if youre going to assume an identity with a history it will be either all made up hogwash or based on an actual persons history. You're looking for snippets of truth within what appears to be whole cloth fabrication.

It can hardly be denied that the most successful lies/charades/disguises always contain an element of truth.
Why worry about the 'father' story at this point? Compared with what we know about the only Mary Kelly who largely fits the bio claimed by Barnett for MJK, there are more important issues to deal with.

Brymbo-Mary was obviously not Barnett's lover, so how could Barnett know so many familial details about a woman he never met?

Its a question worthy of an answer.

Regards, Jon S.