MJK: What Else Can Be Done?

[Bridewell]

The best efforts of a great many people over the years, particularly Chris Scott, have failed to find a document which can be firmly linked to MJK - apart from her death certificate. Is there anything else which can be done without re-covering old ground?

It seems to me that the one certain fact that we have is her residence, for the last six months of her life, at 13, Millers Court. Census records are no help, so what else is out there. Hospital records? There is no evidence that this victim, whoever she was, had hospital treatment during that time, but we don't know that she didn't - and there are the "old firm adhesions" to her right lung to consider. I'm sure that Chris (& others) will have looked for the name, but has anyone checked through the addresses of patients? If we found a female patient giving 13 Millers Court as an address, the name of that patient would have to be significant.

Is there anything that remains undone? Any stones which remain unturned? All ideas welcome. (Apologies to Chris Scott if everything has already been done - note to self - must buy that book!).

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

different name

Hello Colin. You are quite right that Chris and Debs have done yeoman service as researchers here and, as you point out, nothing pertaining to Barnet's story.

Would you feel comfortable looking for a different name? Perhaps "MJK" was NOT her real name?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

... I'm sure that Chris (& others) will have looked for the name, but has anyone checked through the addresses of patients? If we found a female patient giving 13 Millers Court as an address, the name of that patient would have to be significant.

You recall Amelia Farmer, referred to here as Tilly...

"Another report states that the woman whose throat was cut in Spitalfields this morning is generally known as Tilly, and that she went by the name of Mrs. Smith whenever she went into the Casual Ward."

Regards, Jon S.

[kensei]

I suggested this in another thread last year-
If we work off of the theory that "Mary Jane Kelly" was not the girl's real name but only her street name, this caused her to be buried with a death certificate under that name but no findable birth or census records, which would have been under her real name whatever it was.

So what if we turn that back on itself? Whoever she really was would have left no death certificate and so would have appeared- on paper at least- to just disappear. Could it be possible to do a search on women of the right age and description who have birth and census records but no death record? It might take a large team of people several months but just might be able to come up with a list of suspects.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Bridewell
Firstly many thanks indeed for your generous comments on the work on MJK and I must also immediately agree with the comments about Debs for the amazing work that she has done as well on this and many other areas. Along the way with my involvement with Mary Kelly and her story there have also been many others who have helped. advised and encouraged.
The idea you suggest has been done in part in that when I was transcribing the Workhouse Infirmary registers I did post on Casebook some years back a list of those who showed an address in Millers Court (not just No 13)
However this only covered 1887 and 1888.
But of course Kelly and Barnett only lived at Millers Court for less than a year - statements at the inquest varied from 8 months to 10 months, so their period of occupancy should be covered.
I remember Kensei's idea being posted and in theory it might work but the numbers involved would be huge and also there are certain practical research problems:-
1) You say "women of the right age" but we do not know Kelly's real age - the putative age of 25 is only based on Barnett's statement. How much latitude do you allow?
2) You say "women of the right description" but I'm not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean place of birth cos that is about the only qualifier you will find in the data you mention. And IF Kelly was Limerick born then of course you won't find her birth in the English records.
3) There are a number of reasons why a woman could disappear from the records without a death being registered. As it is women we are talking about the chances are that the majority of them may have married, so in addition to the records you mention we would also have to match up their marriages to trace their death records under their married name. A woman may have changed her name for social or criminal reasons or simply because she chose to. I'm sure that women (and men as well!) of Kelly's social class had various reasons for needing or opting for a name change and they would not have gone through the mechanism of a legal name change. We would also have to discount from the records all women who emigrated as they would not have deaths registered in the UK either.

[martin wilson]

It's a long shot but if she was catholic a confirmation register?
All the best.

[Cogidubnus]

It's a long shot but if she was catholic a confirmation register?

looking under what name and where exactly and what date?

All the best

Dave

[martin wilson]

Gawd only knows, hence the use of the words long shot.
IF she was raised as a catholic,IF her parents had her confirmed in the catholic church,IF the church still have the records.
IF her name was Kelly, well,there cant be that many Kelly's registered can there?
It would be a lot easier if her name was Murphy of course.
I very much look forward to hearing from you again in about 10 years time.
All the best.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.'
There is so much confusion surrounding Kelly's[?]real name.
We have Barnett's admission that she married a Davies, even her death certificate has aka Davies/Davis.
We have her landlords account that she was known as Mary Jane, and because she moved in with a man called Kelly, and posed as his wife, became known as Mary Jane Kelly..[although that appears an alias of Barnett]
We also have the name Lawrence to account for.
Mentioned in press reports that the victim was a Mary Jane Lawrence, there was also that name, that a neighbour talked about as the victims husband , he was apparently a drover that called on her, and even asked this neighbour to take in a possible forthcoming summons for him.
So was Kelly her real name, or was it the name she adopted from Barnett's alias?, indeed maybe he had called himself her maiden name when he moved in to room 13.
It would appear that he rented the room, if McCarthy's words can be taken literally ''she came to stay with a man called Kelly''
Summing up we are back to square one, however has anyone ever tried researching in Marriages of a Mary Lawrence.?
Regards Richard.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Richard
I did a search under the names Mary Lawrence and Mary Fisher and Lizzie Fisher and Elizabeth Fisher at the time of writing the Kelly book but sadly found nothing.
One thing I did find surprising is that in the records (including research in my own family) it seems common for couples, even if not married, to assume the appearance of respectability by assuming the man's name. Cohabiting ("living in sin") and divorce were much less tolerated then than now.
In that case I wonder if Kelly, during the last year or so of her life, ever went under the name of Mary Barnett?
Come to that, if she ever cohabited with a previous paramour did she ever use the names Mary Fleming or Mary Morganstone?

Chris

[richardnunweek]

Hello Chris,
The clue to her real name obviously must be the letters which she apparently received from her brother/mother.
One must imagine that any post would have found its way to her via McCarthy, and unless it just said Mary, Millers court, Dorset street , whitechapel, we must assume it had her surname added.
Indeed according to Ms Kendall-Lane, Mrs McCarthy forwarded her belongings on to her[reluctant] army brother , who must have been traced via name.
So it would appear that Mary's surname would have least have been known by the time of her funeral , and the death certificate valid.
So the puzzle is [ as it has always been] why is it so hard to trace this brother , via a regiment, and any descendants of Mary?
Regards Richard.
A valid point about adopting a common law males name, so did Mary believe Barnett's name was actually Kelly?

[Bridewell]

Firstly many thanks indeed for your generous comments on the work on MJK and I must also immediately agree with the comments about Debs for the amazing work that she has done as well on this and many other areas.

Hi Chris,

My apologies to Debs. I should have given her equal billing - especially after all the Scots Guards stuff she's ploughed through! Would it be easier to list the surnames you haven't tried?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Chava]

I've thought for years that Mary Jane Kelly was not her real name but only a nom-de-guerre and maybe one of many. Wasn't there a story that she was illiterate and had to have the newspaper read to her? In which case I would imagine her family was illiterate as well. Whether she could read or not, I've never put much stock in the letters leading us anywhere at all, Mrs McCarthy notwithstanding. And if her brother was in the Scots Guards, wouldn't he have been allowed leave to come to the funeral? OK, she was a whore. But she was murdered in spectacularly nasty circumstances. The newspaper reports mention that as the coffin went by, men doffed their hats and women cried. He may not have been close to his sister, but it would have been a day away from the barracks. And if the Scots Guards were out of town, I still think a journalist would have tracked him down for a story. Mary Kelly! My Sister! That would have been worth a bob or two to Jonty and a lot of circulation to a newspaper.

What does interest me is that no one from her family ever fetched up after she died. I think it's likely that Barnett would have notified them if he had known who they were, and I think he would know something about her family if she gave him the info. After all, they were living together. At some point people sit down and tell stories about their childhood, their siblings and so on. So I think she probably told him the same kind of story she told other people. She really wanted to get lost and stay lost. I don't think it has anything to do with her death but I would love to know why!

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Chava

I think the deductions regarding MJKs literacy stem from the fact that Barnett read the papers to her...

In the dats before Radio and TV this was a common family activity, undertaken for mutual pleasure, and it continued well into the 20th Century amongst those to whom Radio and TV weren't the first choice in entertainment...

I can recall my grandfather as recently as the 60s reading articles from the paper to my grandfather (they turned on the radio or TV for the News and would turn it off again afterwards unless there was something they particularly wanted to catch).

So I think we'd be very hasty indeed in assuming Kelly couldn't at least read...particularly as she was receiving letters from home, which Barnett makes no mention of reading...

With regard to Johnto, what was alleged to be his unit was apparently serving in Ireland at the time...and you'd better believe Debs, Chris and Colin have pretty well covered all the most likely candidates (and probably many of the less likely ones too)...there are whole threads on here devoted to their sterling efforts...

I don't want to sound unduly negative, but unless someone comes up with something right out of the box...

All the best

Dave