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  • #31
    I know you refuse to consider this Sam, but here is one quote from the Daily News on the 10th...."The unfortunate woman had been cut and hacked by the assassin's knife in a manner which was revolting beyond all description. The fiendish assailant was not content with taking the life of his victim by severing the head from the body, but he had exercised an infernal ingenuity in despoiling the corpse of its human semblance. Both ears and the nose had been cut off, and the flesh of the cheeks and forehead peeled off; the breasts were cut away, evidently with a sharp knife, and placed on the table near the bed. The abdomen had been ripped open and disembowelled, portions of the entrails lying about the bed, the liver being placed between the legs. Both thighs had been denuded of flesh, laying bare the bones, and the excised portions laid on the table. Some of the internal parts of the body had been taken away, while, in addition, one arm was almost severed from the trunk, and one hand thrust inside the empty cavity of the abdomen."

    That's the type of comment I referred to, and this is not the only example of it. The left arm is across the trunk, therefore the one arm "almost severed" is the right.
    Michael Richards

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    • #32
      Perhaps the reporter got wind of the doctor(s) describing the arm as "abducted" and made the same mistake that some others have made since.

      If Bond was meticulous enough to record the extravasation of blood into the skin of a small cut on the thumb, he was hardly going to omit the almost-severing of an entire arm.
      Last edited by Sam Flynn; 09-13-2019, 03:27 PM.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Gtzendmmerung, 1888)

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        Perhaps the reporter got wind of the doctor(s) describing the arm as "abducted" and made the same mistake that some others have made since.

        If Bond was meticulous enough to record the extravasation of blood into the skin of a small cut on the thumb, he was hardly going to omit the almost-severing of an entire arm.
        Im interested in knowing just how small the box was that they placed the parts of Mary into when they took her remains out around 4-4:30 that afternoon. Presumably, since we know what was done to her...the "Volte Face"....meant that its possible more than just her internal tissues needed to be identified and matched up. Was she disarticulated at all to fit her in that box? Rigor might have played a part if so.
        Last edited by Michael W Richards; 09-14-2019, 01:26 PM.
        Michael Richards

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        • #34
          Originally posted by packers stem View Post
          Baxter specifically mentioned the Dorset Street case
          I see no reason why Phillips would confuse with Hanbury Street.
          No leg was removed in Hanbury Street though Baxter and Phillips clearly confirm that at least one leg was removed in Dorset Street
          Sincerely doubt Mary Kelly lost a leg.

          Her neck vertebra were notched due to the throat being deeply cut. If Jack had wanted to take her head off,reckon we'd know about it.

          Cheers mate!
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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          • #35
            Strangely, until reading this thread, it hadn't occurred to me that due to the state of Mary Kelly's body and its position that there must of course have been some difficulty transferring it from the bed to the stretcher/board(?) it was carried out of the room on. Given the severity of the cuts to the neck - and forgive the gruesome imagery I'm conjuring here - would the head not have tipped back and be left hanging as they lifted the body up? Would this not have caused splitting or extra tearing of the skin? Unless there was someone especially holding her head as they moved her body.

            Or did they lift her with the bed sheets and then wrap them around her on the stretcher/board and then cover her with another sheet?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by DJA View Post

              Sincerely doubt Mary Kelly lost a leg.

              Her neck vertebra were notched due to the throat being deeply cut. If Jack had wanted to take her head off,reckon we'd know about it.

              Cheers mate!
              But how would we know if Dr Philips's own conclusion was that an attempt was made to remove MJK's head or not?
              ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

              I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

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              • #37
                Dr Phillips would have mentioned separating the joints/vertebra rather than notching Mary Ann Kelly's.
                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Curious Cat View Post
                  Strangely, until reading this thread, it hadn't occurred to me that due to the state of Mary Kelly's body and its position that there must of course have been some difficulty transferring it from the bed to the stretcher/board(?) it was carried out of the room on. Given the severity of the cuts to the neck - and forgive the gruesome imagery I'm conjuring here - would the head not have tipped back and be left hanging as they lifted the body up? Would this not have caused splitting or extra tearing of the skin? Unless there was someone especially holding her head as they moved her body.

                  Or did they lift her with the bed sheets and then wrap them around her on the stretcher/board and then cover her with another sheet?
                  Curiosity Killed The Cat - Little River Band FILM CLIP (1975) - YouTube
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                  • #39
                    Remind me, they did take a photo of MJK after they stitched up what was left of her?

                    Another Ripper relic lost to the mists of time.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by DJA View Post
                      Dr Phillips would have mentioned separating the joints/vertebra rather than notching Mary Ann Kelly's.
                      But that's how the discussion started, because it was noted that Dr Phillips mentioned a similarity in the 'attempt' at separating of the bones of the neck in MJK's case when asked to make a comparison with the Pinchin St case.

                      CORONER. - I should like to ask Dr. Phillips whether there is any similarity in the cutting off of the legs in this case and the one that was severed from the woman in Dorset-street?
                      Dr. Phillips. - I have not noticed any sufficient similarity to convince me it was the person who committed both mutilations, but the division of the neck and attempt to disarticulate the bones of the spine are very similar to that which was effected in this case.

                      Do we have anything from Phillips describing MJK's wounds? It was Bond who described the two deeply notched vertebra in his report C5 and 6. This is at the same point the Pinchin St torso's head was removed. How can we be sure that Phillips didn't personally conclude that an attempt had been disarticulate the spine? We have Bond's description but he doesn't say how two separate vertebrea were both notched. There's no specific mention of two cuts to the neck like in Llewllyn's descriptions of Polly Nicholls neck division either.
                      ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                      I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

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                      • #41
                        Sutton has cut across and "upward",ie through the voice box and across C5 and 6 thereby notching them.

                        Phillips knew what was going on and all but named Sutton at Chapman's inquest.

                        My understanding is that Phillips attended "Bond's post mortem".

                        There seems to be considerable confusion ; Mary Kelly of 1 Miller's Court did not lose a leg and Chapman resided in Dorset Street.
                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Curious Cat View Post
                          Strangely, until reading this thread, it hadn't occurred to me that due to the state of Mary Kelly's body and its position that there must of course have been some difficulty transferring it from the bed to the stretcher/board(?) it was carried out of the room on. Given the severity of the cuts to the neck - and forgive the gruesome imagery I'm conjuring here - would the head not have tipped back and be left hanging as they lifted the body up? Would this not have caused splitting or extra tearing of the skin? Unless there was someone especially holding her head as they moved her body.

                          Or did they lift her with the bed sheets and then wrap them around her on the stretcher/board and then cover her with another sheet?
                          Perhaps you missed this bit, but they took her out in a fairly small wooden box with a lid.
                          Michael Richards

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                            Remind me, they did take a photo of MJK after they stitched up what was left of her?

                            Another Ripper relic lost to the mists of time.
                            Nope. But they put her in a coffin with everything covered but her face for ID's to be made....leading one to conclude that is how Barnett saw her for his ID.
                            Michael Richards

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                              Perhaps you missed this bit, but they took her out in a fairly small wooden box with a lid.
                              Thank you. That detail was missing from my knowledge.

                              However, how was the body transferred from the bed to that small wooden box? Is there a description anywhere of how they lifted the body from its position given the extent of the mutilations? Is it possible that inadvertent further damage could've been done to the neck wounds if the head wasn't held properly?

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                              • #45
                                There are a couple of reports on the removal of the body.
                                ​​​i'm not sure where you get the idea a small wooden box was used, Michael, unless you are thinking of the pail? She was removed in a coffin; presumably regular coffin size, although possibly larger as it had to cater for all and sundry being taken to the mortuary, not just Kelly.
                                That said, rigor mortis may have made it difficult to fit her into the coffin - the doctors may have had to "break" the rigor in her legs first, by flexing them.
                                ​​​​​​The press reports show that the coffin was taken into the room, but not how her remains were transferred to it. But lifting her from the bed, sheets and all, seems logical. And would have the advantage of moving the majority of her extracted organs at the same time.
                                Peehaps the pail contained the remains found elsewhere?

                                Daily News 10 Nov;
                                "At four o'clock in the afternoon the body was removed from Dorset street to Shoreditch Mortuary, which stands at the back of Shoreditch Church. The mutilated remains were placed in a coarse coffin, which had apparently been used on many previous occasions for the conveyance of the dead, and which was partially covered with a coarse canvas cloth. The straps of the coffin were sealed. The coffin was conveyed in a one horse ordinary furniture van, and was escorted by several constables under Sergeant Betham. A large crowd followed. At the mortuary another throng was waiting to see the coffin transferred to the building. The photographer who had been called in to photograph the room removed his camera from the premises at half past four, and shortly afterwards a detective officer carried from the house a pail, with which he left in a four wheel cab. The pail was covered with a newspaper, and was stated to contain portions of the woman's body. It was taken to the house of Dr. Phillips, 2 Spital square"

                                Times 10 Nov;
                                "The same reports, describing the removal of the mutilated body, says at 10 minutes to 4 o'clock a one-horse carrier's cart, with the ordinary tarpaulin cover was driven into Dorset-street, and halted opposite Millers-court. From the cart was taken a long shell or coffin, dirty and scratched with constant use. This was taken into the death chamber, and there the remains were temporarily coffined. The news that the body was about to be removed caused a great rush of people from the courts running out of Dorset-street, and there was a determined effort to break the police cordon at the Commercial-street end. The crowd, which pressed round the van, was of the humblest class, but the demeanour of the poor people was all that could be described. Ragged caps were doffed and slatternly-looking women shed tears as the shell, covered with a ragged-looking cloth, was placed in the van. The remains were taken to the Shoreditch Mortuary, where they will remain until they have been viewed by the coroner's jury."

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