Limerick, the Key?

[Debra A]

The Kilbehenny one might be worth delving a little deeper into.
Mary born 1862 and John in 1864.
I've always thought Henry might be a red herring and could be a middle name used because the father was also John..... Otherwise why Johnto or Ianto which is a Welsh variant of John.
Mothers maiden name was Mayes so that might be unusual enough to make some follow up investigation possible

Yes, definitely an interesting one.

[Bridewell]

Hi,

I am sorry, byt what is the use? Why is the background of Kelly important? There were victims before her. Why should Kelly be a "key"?

Kind regards, Pierre

Rather depends what you're trying to do, doesn't it? If you're trying to find 'Jack the Ripper' it may not help, but if you're trying to find as much detail as possible about the history of the principal players then this is a huge part of that process. A solid and provable identification of MJK would be a phenomenal achievement.

[Robert]

Good heavens, Debs. I've heard of "Who's Who" but this is "Who's Whose."

[Bridewell]

Indeed, but then so did "my" Mary Kelly from Bedwellty - possibly more elements, in fact. Born in Ireland (where isn't stipulated) she lived in a steel-working Welsh town near Cwmavon which, as I've noted, sounds rather like "Carmarthen/Carnarvon" to the unwary.

Thanks, Sam. It might also explain Barnett's confusion. If MJK told him she came from Cwmavon and he repeated it as Carnarvon, her reply is likely to have been something along the lines of "Not Carnarvon, silly! Cwmavon!" In recalling such an incident, he might recall that she corrected his 'Carnarvon' but not what she corrected it to, only that it was something very similar - hence (perhaps!) his introduction of Carmarthen. I think Barnett was trying to be helpful.

[Bridewell]

Good heavens, Debs. I've heard of "Who's Who" but this is "Who's Whose."

I have to say I'm impressed at the teamwork on display here. I think Debs probably has the best grip of any on the whole picture. If there is such a thing as a list of most likely candidates, perhaps it could be divided up among those of us who have access to Ancestry and/or Find My Past. (I have the former but not the latter).

[packers stem]

I have to say I'm impressed at the teamwork on display here. I think Debs probably has the best grip of any on the whole picture. If there is such a thing as a list of most likely candidates, perhaps it could be divided up among those of us who have access to Ancestry and/or Find My Past. (I have the former but not the latter).

I'm on the latter and traced my lot to mayo in a few hours but Mary Kelly is proving to be much more difficult.
I've spent this evening trying to list every Davies who died in a colliery disaster around 1880 plus or minus 2 years but it's a slog to say the least lol

[packers stem]

There were no ironworks deaths that I can find...

[SuspectZero]

There were no ironworks deaths that I can find...

Yes. I've found none either.

[Debra A]

I have to say I'm impressed at the teamwork on display here. I think Debs probably has the best grip of any on the whole picture. If there is such a thing as a list of most likely candidates, perhaps it could be divided up among those of us who have access to Ancestry and/or Find My Past. (I have the former but not the latter).

Hi Colin

I posted this earlier which is a simple list of women baptised as Catholics, named Mary, whose father was named John and who was born in Limerick.
Before the Catholic registers were indexed and released we only had a couple of candidates because we only had the names of women registered in Limerick after the 1864 Statutory birth registration was brought in in Ireland. Now we have a few more possibles, I feel, born earlier than 1864:

Maria Kelly 1857 Kilfinane Limerick Joannis Brigida
Maria Kelly 1858 Mungret Limerick Joanne Maria
Mariam Kelly 1853 Mahoonagh Limerick Joanne Maria
Mariam Kelly 1855 Glin Limerick Joanne Ellena
Mariam Kelly 1859 Croagh Limerick Joannis Honora
Mary Kelly 1853 St. Mary's, Limerick city Limerick John Johanna
Mary Kelly 1854 St. John's, Limerick city Limerick John Eliza
Mary Kelly 1855 Knockany and Patrickswell Limerick John Margt
Mary Jane Kellaher 1865 St. Michael's, Limerick city Limerick John Bridget
Mary Kelly 1862 Kilbehenny Limerick John Mary
Mary Kelly 1865 Ballylanders Limerick John Mary
Mariam Kelley 1861 Cahirnorry Limerick Joannes Honora
Maria Kelly 1857 Kilfinane Limerick Joannis Brigida
Maria Kelly 1862 Bruree Limerick Joaquin Maria
Maria Kelly 1863 Killeedy Limerick Joannis Maria
Maria Kelly 1864 Ballyagran Limerick, Cork Joannis Anna

Both Ancestry and FMP have the Catholic parish records now so perhaps a starting point would be to find the rest of the family/siblings for these women and see if anything leaps out? Just an idea though.

[Debra A]

Good heavens, Debs. I've heard of "Who's Who" but this is "Who's Whose."

I'm not sure how to get to the bottom of the John/Daniel thing. Very puzzling, Robert.

[Debra A]

Rather depends what you're trying to do, doesn't it? If you're trying to find 'Jack the Ripper' it may not help, but if you're trying to find as much detail as possible about the history of the principal players then this is a huge part of that process. A solid and provable identification of MJK would be a phenomenal achievement.

Well said, Colin.

[Robert]

Denis seems to have died 1913. I haven't found him in 1901 (I'm assuming he was then in the asylum for in 1911 he seems to be in the asylum but with age ten years too young).

[Debra A]

Denis seems to have died 1913. I haven't found him in 1901 (I'm assuming he was then in the asylum for in 1911 he seems to be in the asylum but with age ten years too young).

I think I found an alternative listing to the one found by Gareth for this family in 1871.
The soldier Denis, listed with his father John and mother Mary and brothers John and Daniel in 1881 (plus what may be extended family) were also at Halkett St in 1871.

Halkett St
Eliza B Kelly head widow 69 on parish relief b Ireland
Margaret Kelly dau 30 wid on parish relief b Ireland
Bridget Kelly dau 11 on parish relief b Canton Glamorgan
Patrick son 5 b Canton Glamorgan
May ?arrington lodger 63 hawker b Ireland

John Kelly head 38 labourer b Ireland
Mary Kelly wife 37 b Ireland
Denis(h) son 8 b Canton
John son 4 b Canton
Daniel son 3 mos b Canton

[Robert]

Oh blimey!!!

Well, obviously Bridget cannot have been given birth by a 58-year-old Eliza, so I assume she was Margaret's - unless John's wife Mary alternated her name with "Margaret" as people often interchange first and second names - there is a John Kelly aged 26, wife Margaret 28 and daughter Bridget 1 at Waterloo Place, Cardiff St John in 1851. All born Ireland.

I did wonder if Margaret died and John remarried but I can find no Margaret Kelly dying Cardiff.

It's my opinion that when they came over they brought two of everything - two of themselves and two Halkett Streets.

[Robert]

Scrub that, Debs - I misread your 1871 as 1861.