Limerick, the Key?

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. If I recall properly, that was Gareth's opinion as well. Something like rubbernecking?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn. Yes, something like that. Gareth also had them attending the Lord Mayor's Parade though?

I think there may be sketches of some of the Royal Irish Constabulary witnesses in the Graphic for November 1888. I seem to remember them from when I was looking for the illustration of Albert Chester Ives in his astrakhan coat, who was also sketched giving evidence in November.

[lynn cates]

other people's money

Hello Jon. I presume that their junket was "on the house"? Just had a colleague return from a week in England, including a couple days at Oxford. His remark, "It's amazing how comfortable one can make oneself on other people's money."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

interesting

Hello Debs. Hmm, now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

Errata, her true hair colour isn't a known either.

Why would blonde not be her real hair color? I mean, I'm picturing a dark blonde. It isn't that the bleaches and attendant dyes didn't exist, but they were bloody expensive and required constant reapplication. There is no way an East End prostitute could afford them.

[The Good Michael]

Why would blonde not be her real hair color? I mean, I'm picturing a dark blonde. It isn't that the bleaches and attendant dyes didn't exist, but they were bloody expensive and required constant reapplication. There is no way an East End prostitute could afford them.

It could be, but no one really knows. Blonde, brunette, strawberry blonde, red, we don't know. It's that simple.

Mike

[miss marple]

So only one Lmerick Scots guard has been found, and he seems to old and married.[ I didnt get the impression MK bro was married] This made me think,Why would a Catholic boy from Limerick join the Scots Guards, which is a particularly protestant regiment which supported William and Mary?
That could account for the lack of Scots Guards from that part of Ireland, most Irish Scots Guards would come from the North, Ulster etc and be Protestant.
Its odd that Mary's brother did not join an Irish or Welsh regiment.
That throws origins back again, if Mary can't be traced through her brother, either he was not her brother, or she was not from Limerick. A candidate for the brother may turn up, my feeling is he would have been a young man at the start of his career, if the right candidate turned up with the right family but under a different name that would be the reason for looking sideways at Mary's genealogy, Of course her family could still be found in Wales under a different name from Kelly.
My gut instinct is that Limerick is right.

Miss Marple

[Bridewell]

Limerick, Jefferson County, New York, USA? Irish American? (Bet that goes down well!)

Regards, Bridewell.

[Debra A]

So only one Lmerick Scots guard has been found, and he seems to old and married.[ I didnt get the impression MK bro was married] This made me think,Why would a Catholic boy from Limerick join the Scots Guards, which is a particularly protestant regiment which supported William and Mary?
That could account for the lack of Scots Guards from that part of Ireland, most Irish Scots Guards would come from the North, Ulster etc and be Protestant.
Its odd that Mary's brother did not join an Irish or Welsh regiment.
That throws origins back again, if Mary can't be traced through her brother, either he was not her brother, or she was not from Limerick. A candidate for the brother may turn up, my feeling is he would have been a young man at the start of his career, if the right candidate turned up with the right family but under a different name that would be the reason for looking sideways at Mary's genealogy, Of course her family could still be found in Wales under a different name from Kelly.
My gut instinct is that Limerick is right.

Miss Marple

I don't understand why you think he's old, MM. He was born in 1856 compared to c 1863 for Mary, that's only 7 years difference. Do you mean you expect he was younger than Mary? If he was then perhaps Dave is right and he may have been born after the move to Wales?

One of the Kellys (Michael) in the Scots Guards I posted details of was born in Tralee Kerry. Does anyone know how far/close that is to the nearest place in Limerick? We only know Mary said she was born in Limerick, she didn't mention where any of the rest of them were born.
Michael only gives his mothers name as next of kin and she's also living in Tralee, but what if, as has been suggested too, Mary went to Wales with just her father and sister and her mother stayed in Ireland?

[Observer]

More likely, Lynn, they were in London that day for the Lords Mayors Show?

Hi Jon

Sir James Whitehead(Lord Mayor 1888/9) was known as the man who took the circus element out of the Lord Mayors Show, and replace it with a state procession. Perhaps the RIC were invited over to London to take part in the show itself.

Regards

Observer

[Cogidubnus]

One of the Kellys (Michael) in the Scots Guards I posted details of was born in Tralee Kerry. Does anyone know how far/close that is to the nearest place in Limerick? We only know Mary said she was born in Limerick, she didn't mention where any of the rest of them were born.

Hi Debs

I think it's about 25 to 30 miles from the Western borders of the County of Limerick...so not an impossible distance...

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

This made me think,Why would a Catholic boy from Limerick join the Scots Guards, which is a particularly protestant regiment which supported William and Mary?

Hi MM.
Not all Catholics are practicing Catholics. My family is from Dublin and both my father & his brother joined the British Army.
Some locals did join a local militia in Ireland, only to transfer to a full-time British regiment when they came of age.

That throws origins back again, if Mary can't be traced through her brother, either he was not her brother, or she was not from Limerick.

It seems this brother-soldier angle is dying a death.
I agree that Limerick appears to have been her choice but a lot of Irish records were destroyed so I don't know if any unpublished parish registers might hold a clue.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

This made me think,Why would a Catholic boy from Limerick join the Scots Guards, which is a particularly protestant regiment which supported William and Mary?

I initially took this at face value, but thinking about it, doesn't it contain a generalisation? How do we know he's a Catholic boy from Limerick? Despite the frequent calls for Catholic Emancipation, the Roman Catholic Church was not in complete ascendancy in the southern counties - it had been off and on suppressed since the mid 17th century (hence the hatred of Cromwell...though arguably Wentworth/Strafford was probably as bad) and the Church of Ireland (Eaglais na hÉireann) was oft promoted in it's place...Even as late as partition in 1922 between 7.5 and 10% of southern Irish were protestant...so he could be a protestant lad from Limerick, or Tralee, or even a chapel lad from Welsh Wales look you....

Dave

[Errata]

It could be, but no one really knows. Blonde, brunette, strawberry blonde, red, we don't know. It's that simple.

Mike

But people do know. She is alternately described as a blonde or redhead, which would lend a person to believe she had reddish blonde hair. In the photograph taken at the crime scene, her hair color is consistent with that of someone with medium to dark blonde hair, noticeably lighter in tone than the average brunette. She certainly didn't have dark hair. In fact her hair appears to be the same general shade as the wood of the bed, which would be oak or pine, both falling well within the blonde range.

And if one likes, one could look up pictures of George Armstrong Custer, who is famous for his blond hair, and see that the two colors are almost an exact match, but with Kelly having more beige than white, which would indicate a reddish tone to the blonde, as opposed to the yellow tone of Custer.

So if she doesn't look like a brunette, why would she be a brunette?

[The Good Michael]

Errata,

Let me help you a bit with brunette:

deepest brunette - the darkest brown, which can be a very dark chestnut; sometimes appears to be off black at a distance.[3]
dark brown
milk chocolate brown
chestnut brown - medium brunette to dark brown with dark auburn tones.
light chestnut brown
medium brown - standard brunette, comparable to russet brown
walnut brown - a warmer variant of medium brown, comparable to a light chestnut
medium golden brown - brown with yellowish tone.
light golden brown
light golden reddish brown - a warm light brown with red tones.
medium ash brown
light ash brown - almost blonde hair
lightest brown - light brown that goes mid blonde in the sun

MJK couldn't have been any of those colors? And this from a black and white photo? Again, we don't know her hair color, or maybe you do and the rest of us don't.

Mike

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. Hmm, now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

Well, we know members of the RIC were definitely over from Ireland in November to give evidence, so, perhaps they planned to take in the Lords Mayor's Show too? One of them did managed to get his watch nicked from the Alhambra Threatre, so it wasn't all work and no play.