IMPORTANT - update on the alleged Kelly family photo

[Chris Scott]

As a final note for today below is the family tree as displayed on Ancestry. I hasten to add this has been published as a Public Tree and is accessible to all. At the head are Joseph and Bridget with "the" family photo that was sent to me. I have forwarded this to the supplier of the pics for comment and have asked her how she fits into this family tree - if she does
One final note - I had assumed that as Joseph and Bridget had married in the USA in 1852 that all children had been American born. However when I looked at the available facts for the Mary K Kelly born 1860, she is listed as born in Ireland
Chris

[curious]

Copying a post I made several years ago on another forum

I had a nice surprise a few years ago when through a genealogist colleague in Wales (Peter Birchwood) I got a "gig" appearing on-camera for a segment of such a show. I think though that the show I appeared on was called "Find-a-Fortune" or something similar. Could that be right?

In any case, Granada TV hired a local cameraman here in the Baltimore area and sent a team over to interview me. The producers wanted me to discuss heirs to the fortune of the Calvert family, the Lords Baltimore, the colonial proprietors of the colony of Maryland. I was filmed leaning against a cannon at Fort McHenry in Baltimore harbor.

The legitimate line of the Calvert family died out in the eighteenth century when the last Lord Baltimore passed away. The last colonial proprietor of Maryland was Henry Harford, an illegitimate son of the last lord. Born on the wrong side of the blanket, as they say.

At the time of the American Revolution, the Calvert family estates were confiscated by the new American authorities.

I think it's doubtful that anyone alive today has the lineage to be able to claim anything from the Calvert estate. That having been said, if someone could successfully make such a claim, it could involve billions of dollars of prime real estate in downtown Baltimore City. So if you think you might be an heir, matey, go for it!!!!

Chris

Hi, Chris,
As all the others have told you, you have handled this situation wonderfully. But doesn't the fact that Mary K. was born in Ireland pique your interest further?

While I am interested in that, at the moment, I am more interested in Lord Baltimore who founded Annapolis, which was originally called . . .something else, right? Maybe Providence?? my memory isn't working.

Anyway, my interest is in the Howard family from Jamestown. My family myth is that one of the Lord Baltimores married a Howard (yes a long ago relative), so I am not a descendent.

Was that accurate? Do you know?

Thanks,

[Livia]

On every US census, from 1860 to 1900,
Mary Katherine Kelly is listed as having
been born in Mississippi. On the 1900
census, it gives her birthday as June,
1860, but on the 1860 census, Mary
Katherine is listed as 5 months old.
The census was recorded in August.

But a real whopper was told by
Mrs Kelly on the 1900 census. Her birth
year is listed as 1854, and although it's
written over, it looks like she's
46 years old (which adds up), has
been married for 48 years, and her
daughter Mary is 39. She's had 7
children and none have died (as of
1900).



The family following Joseph and Bridget Kelly's
family is their son Steaven's [sic] family.


Other items of interest:

Mississippi Marriages, 1776-1935

Name: Joseph Kelly

Spouse: Bridget Mannix

Marriage Date: 15 Jun 1852

County: Monroe

This might be Joseph Kelly, although the
handwriting on the manifest looks like it
says Kaley:

Name: Joseph Keley

Arrival Date: 26 Nov 1850

Age: 25

Gender: Male

Port of Departure: Liverpool, England

Ship Name: Halcyon

Port of Arrival: New Orleans, Louisiana

National Archives' Series Number:

M259_33




Name: Bridget Mannix

Arrival Date: 13 Jan 1851

Age: 18

Gender: Female

Port of Departure: Liverpool, England

Ship Name: Springfield

Port of Arrival: New Orleans, Louisiana

National Archives' Series Number:

M259_33



Liv

[Chris Scott]

Hi Live
You wrote:
"On every US census, from 1860 to 1900,
Mary Katherine Kelly is listed as having
been born in Mississippi. On the 1900
census, it gives her birthday as June,
1860, but on the 1860 census, Mary
Katherine is listed as 5 months old.
The census was recorded in August."
That is interesting in that in the pages referring to this family (see below) I have found 7 listings that definitely refer to this Mary K Kelly. Of these 7 entries, four say she was born in the United States and three that she was born in Ireland. One of these Ireland entries says specifically that she was born in Limerick.
Let me add again that by attaching the family names I am not breaching any confidentiality as these details have been published by the originators to the Public Trees section of the Ancestry site and so would be known to be openly viewable.

[Chris Scott]

The more I thought about this overnight the more I am becoming tempted to think that someone (by no means necessarily the person who sent this to me back in 2009) has carefully crafted references to a family that has just enough similar to THE Mary Kelly to pique my interest. But again their motive, if this is the case, remains obscure.
We have a family whose name certainly was Kelly whose father was apparently certainly born in Limerick. There are 2 daughters and numerous sons. One of the daughters is named Mary and is born in 1860. One source lists her as born in Limerick.
But maybe this indicates that these points of similarity could explain how a family legend could have arisen - but then again there are so many points of difference, and not minor differences, which would seem to make such a misidentification virtually impossible.
The worrying thing at the moment is that the lady in Canada who sent me this has not replied since I mailed all this new research to her yesterday morning.
But I will not prejudge.

[Chris Scott]

Liv
many thanks for all the background data on this family you have found - it is much appreciated
Chris

[richardnunweek]

Hello Chris,
Somewhat disappointed in developments, however someone has gone to a lot of trouble to trace this particular family with several talking points amongst .
As I initially stated , my concerns were that your informant clearly was familiar with your reputation within Casebook, and by handing you the goodies, would assure a fair hearing, but if this was the case patience has been a virtue..so maybe not the case.
I can see speculative scenario's rising up, ending up with Mary Kathleen Kelly being the person believed to have been the Millers court victim, and dying in 1928 in the states, the same year, as her lover some 40 years before, Joseph Barnett, although oceans apart.
Mrs Maxwell was right, and there are some hurdles to overcome, but nothing is impossible in the land of Casebook.
Regards Richard.

[curious]

The more I thought about this overnight the more I am becoming tempted to think that someone (by no means necessarily the person who sent this to me back in 2009) has carefully crafted references to a family that has just enough similar to THE Mary Kelly to pique my interest. But again their motive, if this is the case, remains obscure.
We have a family whose name certainly was Kelly whose father was apparently certainly born in Limerick. There are 2 daughters and numerous sons. One of the daughters is named Mary and is born in 1860. One source lists her as born in Limerick.
But maybe this indicates that these points of similarity could explain how a family legend could have arisen - but then again there are so many points of difference, and not minor differences, which would seem to make such a misidentification virtually impossible.
The worrying thing at the moment is that the lady in Canada who sent me this has not replied since I mailed all this new research to her yesterday morning.
But I will not prejudge.

there are just times in life when both work and family emergencies, births, weddings, etc., take precedence over genealogy.

Plus, it make take her some time to study it, check your own information, come to an understanding ... decide how to respond.

[lynn cates]

reason

Hello Richard. I, too, can see those scenarios. But I hope one of them will contain a reason about why someone wished to kill her in the first place.

Cheers.
LC

[Livia]

The more I thought about this overnight the more I am becoming tempted to think that someone (by no means necessarily the person who sent this to me back in 2009) has carefully crafted references to a family that has just enough similar to THE Mary Kelly to pique my interest. But again their motive, if this is the case, remains obscure.
We have a family whose name certainly was Kelly whose father was apparently certainly born in Limerick. There are 2 daughters and numerous sons. One of the daughters is named Mary and is born in 1860. One source lists her as born in Limerick.
But maybe this indicates that these points of similarity could explain how a family legend could have arisen - but then again there are so many points of difference, and not minor differences, which would seem to make such a misidentification virtually impossible.
The worrying thing at the moment is that the lady in Canada who sent me this has not replied since I mailed all this new research to her yesterday morning.
But I will not prejudge.

Hi Chris,

It is tempting to think that the obvious errors are deliberate,
but there's another possibility. Whoever posted the original
tree made errors and the original tree was lifted wholesale
by others and the errors were repeated. The other odd thing is that
although all these census records are readily available (Ancestry
has added a feature that if you look at a record for a person,
other records that might pertain to that person appear on the
screen to the right, so if you're looking at the 1900 census, you
can click on say the 1860 census that appears on the right to
see if it's the same person), but the only records that appear on
Joseph Kelly's individual person's page on some of these trees,
are his birth, marriage and death, no census records at all. This
is a relatively new feature, so it could be that these trees were
created before this was available.

The other noticeable feature of most of these family trees is,
they all seem to descend from Stephen Henry Kelly's line and
he is the most thoroughly researched of all the Kelly children
and it appears he had the most chldren of all of them too.
On the 1900 census, the four Kelly children listed with Bridget and
Joseph, whose ages range from 27 to 39 are all unmarried
and this includes Mary Katherine. So what might have
happened is, because the other Kelly's were not part
of someone's direct line, and because they did not marry
and reproduce, scant attention was paid to them, but
they were included because they are part of the family.

Anyway, I was curious as to whether Joseph Kelly had
been involved in the Civil War and although I couldn't
find any military record for him, I did find this, posted
in 2004 on Ancestry's message board:

I am looking for information on Joseph Kelly. He was born in Limerick, Ireland around 1824 and came to the US around 1851. He married Bridget Mannix in 1852. She was also from Ireland and was born around 1833 in Limerick, Ireland. I have been unable to locate any other info on the family other than this. They settled in Lee Co., MS and Joseph served in the Confederacy and was in Atlanta Ga in August of 1864 based on a letter sent home to Bridget. It also mentions a brother of Bridgets named John. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

This poster is the owner of the Jeffreys tree and although
it is now well sourced and does contain all the relevant census
records (1860-1900), he still lists Mary Katherine as born in Ireland.
Since he also has a letter from Joseph to Bridget, I'm wondering if
he has other family papers or a Bible that lists Mary K as being
born in Ireland and he's chosen to go with that, rather than
the census records.



Thanks Chris, but it was really your researcher who located
these families. I'm just filling in the odd detail here and there
for those, who like me, are curious about them having studied
their faces for the past few weeks. I probably would have got
there eventually, your friend was just much quicker, so kudos
to him/her. Great work!

Liv

[Robert]

The person who replied to that post, also posted on Rootschat a few years ago :

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,311605.msg1929590.html

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Robert. Thanks.

There seems no mention of the MJK story. Perhaps they were given a bit of erroneous information later?

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

Hi Lynn

One thing for Kelly-as-ultimate-target theorists : Mary Katherine Kelly = Kate Kelly = Eddowes? No, no......

[lynn cates]

Marys

Hello Robert. Well, the thought had crossed my mind. But I think I'd like it better had it been Mary Anne. There actually seems to have been one living not too far north of John and Kate.

Cheers.
LC

[Livia]

Thanks, Robert. Through your link, I was
able to find their graves at Gilvo Cemetery
in Moorville, Mississippi. Jasper and Florimond
are also buried in this cemetery, as well as
Stephen Henry Kelly, his wife and at least
two of his sons. No sign of Mary K though,
but it may be that her grave hasn't been
listed, or she later married and it's listed
without her maiden name inscribed or she
was the last of the familly to die and her
name wasn't included on a headstone.

On their find a grave page it also says:

Joseph, Michael and John Kelly came to Mississippi
from Ireland during the Famine and settled in Lee
County. They were brothers.


So the ship's manifest, the Halcyon,
was Joseph Kelly, as his brothers are
listed with him.






Liv