Could MJK Have Been A Local Girl?

[Bridewell]

Hi, All,

There is, in the 1881 census, a 23-year-old Mary Kelly, (born in Whitechapel) recorded as being a pauper in the Whitechapel Union Infirmary. Obviously the age is about 5 years out - unless she told Barnett she was younger than she really was, but the woman concerned lists her occupation as "Prostitute", which is refreshingly honest, if nothing else.

I know that Mary Kelly was used as an alias (by Eddowes anyway), but might the only true thing she said about herself have been her name? How ironic would that be?

Apologies. I did try to upload the relevant image, but it exceeded the size limit for a jpeg.

Regards, Bridewell.

[John Wheat]

Mary Kelly

I think its perfectly possible Mary Kelly could have been a local or that the Mary Kelly you uncovered is the same Mary Kelly who was sadly murdered by Jack the Ripper.

[Livia]

Surely Barnett would have recognized
a fellow east ender by her accent, the
way she spoke, as would others?

[John Wheat]

Still think the Mary Kelly in the 1881 census could still be the same Mary Kelly. I'll admit she may have spent time in Ireland.

[Bridewell]

Hi Livia,

Surely Barnett would have recognized
a fellow east ender by her accent, the
way she spoke, as would others?

I don't think the accent is that big a deal. Audrey Hepburn managed a passing rendition and she was born in Belgium.

Hi John,

Still think the Mary Kelly in the 1881 census could still be the same Mary Kelly. I'll admit she may have spent time in Ireland.

She's the only "other" Mary Kelly that I've found who can be positively linked to Whitechapel in the 1880's and to prostitution.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Livia]

I don't think the accent is that big a deal.
Audrey Hepburn managed a passing rendition and she was
born in Belgium.

Yes, for a brief period while on set.

But not as a life style, day in, day out, every
time Mary spoke, and particularly when drunk,
when she tended to be boisterous and loud.

Someone would have noticed and commented
on such an affectation and is far as is known,
they didn't.

Liv

[Archaic]

Hi Bridewell.

I've mulled it this over, and I have to say that I don't think Mary would have had much motive to pretend to be Irish if she wasn't. It simply wouldn’t have been to her advantage socially or economically. There wasn't any glamor attached to being Irish in those days.

19th C. Irish immigrants in London lived in an atmosphere of prejudice, just as they did in America. During the Irish Diaspora that followed the Great Famine, anti-Irish hatred was fomented due to a volatile combination of racial, religious, and economic prejudice, just as it was for the Jews. The prevailing attitude was reflected in the familiar “Irish Need Not Apply” signs.

When I read 19th C. sources, I find that highly prejudicial phrases such as "a woman of the low Irish type" occur again and again. Popular cartoons of the day (including some famously associated with the Ripper case, such as those from Punch) depict the Irish as possessed of grotesquely brutish and apelike features with low foreheads, meant to convey their intellectual and cultural inferiority. They were usually depicted dressed in rags, and either swigging a bottle of booze, engaged in criminal activity, or both. Irish women were commonly characterized as immodest and destitute alcoholics with a swarm of ragged and starving children.

While people of genuine Irish descent continued to take pride in their heritage despite the hard times, there wouldn’t have been much incentive for a local English girl to have “posed” as an Irish immigrant by faking an Irish name and accent, much less to have posed as an Irish Catholic one. (Remember, Mary was buried as a Catholic.)

Mary Jane Kelly seemed to have had an affinity for ‘better things’, with her snow-white apron, her tales of visiting France, her reputation for being “much superior” to others, and her use of the elegantly French-accented “Jeanette”. If Mary wasn’t truly Irish and proud of her heritage, I can’t think of any motive for her pretending to be an Irish Catholic immigrant in 1880’s London. She could have made up a much more glamorous origin for herself.

Irish (and proud of it! ),
Archaic

[niko]

Good post and well said Archaic, I totally believe Mary Kelly was Irish and proud of it, I also belive she was a local of the East End, at least the time she lived there, all the best, agur.

Niko.

[Semper_Eadem]

In regards to Audrey Hepburn and her accent, she was born in Belgium yes, but her father was Scots-Irish and probably started her on learning English when she was very young, or spoke English to her and perhaps Gaelic to for all we know.

As for Mary Kelly from the 1880 census, well, perhaps she was already living in Whitechaple by this date and lied about where she was born on the Census because she didn't want to appear Irish or lied to Barnett, but Archaic makes a good point, folkes tended to down play their Irish ancestory if they had any? I know around 1880 Mary was supposedly married to Davis but perhaps that had already happened earlier then is generally is thought. She could of left Whitechaple for a while too or have just been visiting? Just some theories for you all to mule over. However Mary could of have been older then she claimed to be.

[John Wheat]

Hi Bridewell
I think you may have found the correct Mary Jane Kelly and any info that could possibly be about MJK is obviously useful considering the scarcity of info on her.

[lynn cates]

age

Hello George. (Hope I got that right.)

"I know around 1880 Mary was supposedly married to Davis but perhaps that had already happened earlier then is generally is thought."

If so, she would need either:

1. To also have been older than generally thought.

2. An EXTREMELY young bride.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Bridewell, John. If that is our MJK, then the standard story leaves much to be desired.

Cheers.
LC

[Suzi]

Archaic!
Well said- as ever!!!
The voice of sanity!

[miss marple]

I have reseached this Mary Kelly, its been posted before but will repeat it.

Census 1861
1 New Court off Dorset St
Edward Kelly 30 born Ireland, labourer.
Sarah Kelly 30 born Whitechapel wife
Edward 1 son born Whitechapel
Mary 2 daug born Whitechapel

1870 Death of Edward Kelly age 11 Whitechapel
1870 Death of Edward Kelly age 40 december.Poplar think its the father
Nothing in census 71 as yet

1881 census 2 Winchester Terrace

Sarah A Kelly 49 charwoman born middlesex [ spits is in middx]
Peter 16 son labourer born middx
Henry son 15 ''
Louisa daug 11''

1881 Mary Kelly pauper prostitute 23 Whitechapel Union Infirmary Bakers Row

There is a death certificate from 1891 for Mary Kelly Age 32 at Whitechapel Infirmary. died of acute peritonitis but although the age and location is right it may not be her as she is described as a domestic servant, late of 35 Little Goodge St Tottenham Court Rd so she either got lucky and bettered herself after being a pauper prossy or its not her. Cant find another Mary born in Whitechapel of same age, maybe this one got the sack and went back to whitechapel.

Miss Marple
Anyway our Mary would have had a lilting irish welsh accent dont think she could have passed herself off as native irish talking with an east end accent.

[Bridewell]

Thanks, Miss Marple & thanks also to whoever did the research, if not you. I also think it unlikely that this girl was MJK.

Anyway our Mary would have had a lilting irish welsh accent dont think she could have passed herself off as native irish talking with an east end accent.

We don't know this, though, surely? We assume it, because of the account given by Barnett of her antecedents which may, or may not, be true. If
MJK was born in Limerick & moved to Carmarthen, as a young girl, she would have had either an Irish or a Welsh accent (or a blend).

I dont think she could have passed herself off as native irish talking with an east end accent

She claimed to have been born in Limerick & moved to London via Wales, so we presume that she had a credible Irish/Welsh accent, but perhaps she didn't. We know what her story was, but (so far as I'm aware) we don't know whether or not anybody actually believed it.

Regards, Bridewell.