Kellys in the Scots Guards

[PaulB]

Paul, I've just been giving this a little more thought. I was under the impression that the list Neal Shelden compiled, that I posted at the beginning of the thread, was made from the Muster Rolls for the 2nd battalion Scots Guards 85-88. The records I checked those names against were the Chelsea Pension Records from the Chelsea Hospital and I was able to find all the names on the Muster Rolls in the full pension records, plus extras. Wouldn't that suggest that the pension records are full for that period if two separate sets of records match?
Or am misunderstanding something?

I dunno, Debs. Just passing on what I was told 30 odd years ago.

[Chris Scott]

As there have been many records added to Ancestry since I did these searches some years back I looked again today
The only record I could find (allowing for the area of interest and rough time period)was a birth in 1900 (Quarter 4) in St George in the East of a child named Kasche Buki. Not having checked I do not know if this child was make or female but as this was only 12 years after the Kelly murder it might be worth a look.

[Debra A]

I know, Paul. I've no doubt some records are missing too.

I have no expert knowledge of how these military records work so I'd welcome some guidance from anyone who does, I may be totally wrong but I just got to thinking that if the Muster Rolls (Are these annual lists of those serving in a certain regiment that year?)survive from 1888 it's unlikely that just a couple of names are missing from them? And if they tally with the pension records then both would seem to be full for the period we are interested in and that brings us back to square one? No Henry Kelly in the Scots Guards in 1888.

[PaulB]

I know, Paul. I've no doubt some records are missing too.

I have no expert knowledge of how these military records work so I'd welcome some guidance from anyone who does, I may be totally wrong but I just got to thinking that if the Muster Rolls (Are these annual lists of those serving in a certain regiment that year?)survive from 1888 it's unlikely that just a couple of names are missing from them? And if they tally with the pension records then both would seem to be full for the period we are interested in and that brings us back to square one? No Henry Kelly in the Scots Guards in 1888.

That's my feeling too, but I also checked for John Kelly (thinking that Barnett may have transposed the names of father and son, and, of course, that the brother was called John would explain 'Johnto'.

[Debra A]

I think that's where this thread first came in, Paul!
I should have said no man named Kelly in the Scots Guards who fits what we would expect of 'Johnto.'

[PaulB]

I think that's where this thread first came in, Paul!
I should have said no man named Kelly in the Scots Guards who fits what we would expect of 'Johnto.'

The trouble with nicknames is that they sometimes don't reflect anything obvious.

[Debra A]

The trouble with nicknames is that they sometimes don't reflect anything obvious.

Well, I'm still interested in what appears to be a connection between the nickname Jonto and the surname Johns(t)on.

My real point was that in all the pension records I looked at, none of the men named Kelly, serving in the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards in 1888, seem to fit what we would expect.
Ages and birthplaces are given and also names and addresses of the next of kin but nothing seems to jump out with any of them.

[PaulB]

Well, I'm still interested in what appears to be a connection between the nickname Jonto and the surname Johns(t)on.

My real point was that in all the pension records I looked at, none of the men named Kelly, serving in the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards in 1888, seem to fit what we would expect.
Ages and birthplaces are given and also names and addresses of the next of kin but nothing seems to jump out with any of them.

You must be able to live with the frustration that is Ripper research by now!

[Debra A]

It's not normally this frustrating!

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Despite our best efforts there's still no trace of MJK's parents, no trace of her dead husband, no trace of her alleged child, no trace of Mrs Buki, no trace of her brother, no solid clues to her past, no agreement as to her description, and no reported agreement regarding her name.

Surely by now this should be raising red flags.

Regards,

Simon

[miss marple]

I found an odd little entry in the 1871 census, A ten year old Mary Ann Kelly from Ireland as a servant in James Eaton's house,
Ifield Rd St Mary Abbot, Brompton
James Eaton 47 born Somerset no occupation
Mary 30 wife born Somerset
William 4 son
John 3 born Surrey
Rebecca Castle,56 nurse born Somerset
Mary Kelly 10 servant born Ireland.
So what was this Irish child doing in this house being a servant at such a young age?
There were no Irish connections, was she a charity child or orphan?
Just a straw clutching thought,Debs any Eatons in the Scotch Guards?

Miss Marple

[Debra A]

I found an odd little entry in the 1871 census, A ten year old Mary Ann Kelly from Ireland as a servant in James Eaton's house,
Ifield Rd St Mary Abbot, Brompton
James Eaton 47 born Somerset no occupation
Mary 30 wife born Somerset
William 4 son
John 3 born Surrey
Rebecca Castle,56 nurse born Somerset
Mary Kelly 10 servant born Ireland.
So what was this Irish child doing in this house being a servant at such a young age?
There were no Irish connections, was she a charity child or orphan?
Just a straw clutching thought,Debs any Eatons in the Scotch Guards?

Miss Marple

Hi Miss M.
There was a William Eaton in the 2bn Scots Guards but he didn't join until 1890 and his parents and wife lived in Edinburgh,he was also born there.

[Scott Nelson]

Despite our best efforts there's still no trace of MJK's parents, no trace of her dead husband, no trace of her alleged child, no trace of Mrs Buki, no trace of her brother, no solid clues to her past, no agreement as to her description, and no reported agreement regarding her name.

Surely by now this should be raising red flags.

Yes, it has. One has to wonder about the identity of the person found on the bed. The best lead may still be a presumed brother in the Scots Guards, Henry Johnston(e).

[Simon Wood]

Hi Scott,

As leads go, what is "best" about a presumed brother in the Scots Guards?

Regards,

Simon

[PaulB]

"Despite our best efforts there's still no trace of MJK's parents, no trace of her dead husband, no trace of her alleged child, no trace of Mrs Buki, no trace of her brother, no solid clues to her past, no agreement as to her description, and no reported agreement regarding her name.

Surely by now this should be raising red flags."

The flags have been raised and fluttering in the wind for decades, Simon, as you are perfectly well aware. It's not as if any of this is remotely new. But as the story told by Barnett is pretty much the only hope anyone has of identifying Mary Kelly, people keeping looking and hoping. The alternative is a blank canvas on which nothing can be painted.