Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Debra A]

Hi Paul,

Barnett lied? Why not? And, if true, should we really be surprised?

What characterizes the WM is its overwhelming number of dead ends, red herrings, obvious lies and evasions, misrememberings, contradictions, confusions and conflations.

Regards,

Simon

What would be Barnett's motive for lying, Simon? Fun?

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Debra,

A needle in a haystack.

I agree with you, except that I doubt the presence of a needle.

Like so many other aspects of the Ripper mystery, the quest for Henry/John/Johnto Kelly is a fool's errand.

Regards,

Simon

I agree totally

[Trevor Marriott]

What would be Barnett's motive for lying, Simon? Fun?

Its perhaps not so much a question of Barnett lying its a question of how many lies Kelly told to him.

In the absence of anyone being able to prove anyhting she is alleged to have told him it seems she had fed him a real good old yarn.

[Debra A]

I agree totally

Hi Trevor.
You also think Barnett lied?

[Debra A]

Its perhaps not so much a question of Barnett lying its a question of how many lies Kelly told to him.

In the absence of anyone being able to prove anyhting she is alleged to have told him it seems she had fed him a real good old yarn.

Our posts crossed.
Simon seems to think Barnett lied though? That's different to what you are saying.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

I have absolutely no idea. But please note that I did write "if true".

We choose to believe Barnett about Johnto, yet dismiss his story about MJK having a child in tow.

Are both statements true? Are both statements false? Why should one be true and the other false?

I have a sneaky feeling here that somebody will point blame at the Star newspaper.

Ripperology's a funny old game.

Regards,

Simon

[Garry Wroe]

Which of these two groups- a Whitechapel unfortunate, or a soldier, is more likely to have given a false name?

Whoah, there, Debra. This is straying dangerously close to common sense. You'll be suggesting next that Carrie Maxwell's Kelly sighting was mistaken.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Which group indeed?

The Times, 16th October 1888 -

"Up to yesterday the efforts of the detectives had been at fault, owing, as was suggested by the City Solicitor at the inquest, to the fact that Conway had drawn his pension from the 18th Royal Irish Regiment under a false name, that of Thomas Quinn."

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,

I have absolutely no idea. But please note that I did write "if true".

We choose to believe Barnett about Johnto, yet dismiss his story about MJK having a child in tow.

Are both statements true? Are both statements false? Why should one be true and the other false?

I have a sneaky feeling here that somebody will point blame at the Star newspaper.

Ripperology's a funny old game.

Regards,

Simon

HiSimon.
The bit about the brother in the Scots Guards is part of his sworn testimony though? Mary having a child is not.
Why wasn't it repeated in the press that her brother was called Johnto by his comrades, though?

[Debra A]

Hi All,

Which group indeed?

The Times, 16th October 1888 -

"Up to yesterday the efforts of the detectives had been at fault, owing, as was suggested by the City Solicitor at the inquest, to the fact that Conway had drawn his pension from the 18th Royal Irish Regiment under a false name, that of Thomas Quinn."

Regards,

Simon

We've already had the stats from Wickerman on this, Simon.
1 in 100 gave a false name.
I've actually seen one in the records of the scots Guards, he was found out and his real name recorded in the file.
I bet we can switch those figures for a Whitechapel unfortunate.

[Garry Wroe]

"Up to yesterday the efforts of the detectives had been at fault, owing, as was suggested by the City Solicitor at the inquest, to the fact that Conway had drawn his pension from the 18th Royal Irish Regiment under a false name, that of Thomas Quinn."

One example doesn't make a trend, though, Simon. Trawl the records and you'll find aliases in abundance amongst the Whitechapel prostitute community, as well as a propensity towards gilding the lily that exasperated a number of newsmen.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

According to the Kelly inquest transcript held at the Greater London Record Office, Barnett did not mention the Scots Guards whilst under oath.

Barnett: "She also said she had 6 brothers at home and one in the army, one was Henry Kelly."

Why wasn't it repeated in the press that her brother was called Johnto by his comrades?

Because, and for whatever reason, whomever took Barnett's original witness statement kept that detail to themselves.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

conversion

Hello Trevor.

"Its perhaps not so much a question of Barnett lying its a question of how many lies Kelly told to him."

Right. And it was Chris Scott's book first converted me to this view.

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Trevor.

"Its perhaps not so much a question of Barnett lying its a question of how many lies Kelly told to him."

Right. And it was Chris Scott's book first converted me to this view.

Cheers.
LC

But who are we to stop the headless chickens

[Debra A]

But who are we to stop the headless chickens

But you are agreeing with the majority of us on this thread, not just Lynn;that MJK lied to Barnett in some way.
There is no Henry Kelly in the Scots Guards in 1888, so she must have lied at least once.