Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Debra A]

Copied over from another thread:

I just found an old post in the archives by Neal Shelden that gives the names and soldier numbers of all men with the surname Kelly or McCarthy in 2nd Battalion Scots Guards from Muster Rolls 1885-mid 1888.
I just realised that I can use the numbers Neal recorded from these records to check their pension records with fuller details.
It might draw a blank but worth it for ruling out too I think?....if it works!

Thanks very much Neal!

[Debra A]

Here is Neal's original post

Last year, in searching for Mary Jane Kelly’s brother in the 2nd Brigade Scots Guards musters records at the PRO, I made this account of all the names and numbers of Kelly‘s and McCarthy‘s and variants. I have also added some notes.

2nd Brigade Scots Guards musters records - from 1885- to mid 1888.

6192 James Kelly (discharged)
6935 James Kelly (joined at 30)
7734 James Kelly
5857 James Kelly
5352 William Kelly (on 1881 census shown as age 27, born Westmeath, IRE)
5786 Patrick Kelly (joined reserve)
7607 Patrick Kelly (deserted)
6374 Michael Kelly (on 1881 census shown as age 21, born Stirling, Scotland)
7623 Robert Kelly (join reserve)
7754 Patrick O’Kelly (joined reserve)
6330 Michael Keily or Kiely (at school , discharged, later to Lance Corporal?)
5786 P.Keilly (in prison)
Earlier P.Kelly?
And M.Kelly (to Dublin Fusiliers)?
4735 Michael Kelly (from C? Corps to army reserve)
4751 I failed to write down the name but it would not have been Henry, John, or Johnto? (to army reserve)
6269 Thomas Kelly (relegated from 40th Green, discharged)
7421 John Robert Killey (b.May 1867?)
John Robert Killey discharge certificate said: Born at Ramsey, Isle of Man. Joined 19yrs 9mnths, occupation: sailor, 5ft 8¼ ins, chest 34 ins, fresh complexion, brown hair, grey eyes, recruited at Liverpool on 15th Feb 1887, Royal Artillery gave him notice. Father John, mother Mary, younger brother Thomas. Living: College Street, Ramsey, Isle of Man. Service record: 17th Feb 1887-14th Feb 1899=12 years.
Continued musters record:
6347 Charles McCarthy (to army reserve)
5770 Thomas McCarthy (to army reserve)
6552 William McCartney?
Also a Henry McCaskie?

As we can see from the list there was no Henry, John or Johnto Kelly‘s, or variants, or McCarthy’s, in the muster records for the 2nd Brigade Scots Guards. Maybe Kelly’s brother joined up after mid-1888, but I think it unlikely?
Therefore, discharge certificates would have to be searched for most of the men above, but I fear that there is little chance that he was one of the above even if we believe her story?
It may well be that we have to concede that his surname was another name, and that we should look in the records for a different surname with the first names of Henry, John, or Johnto. This would also account for the man only being a lover of Mary Jane Kelly, rather than her brother.

[Debra A]

Here are my first couple of results [selected details from more extensive records and shown in red] from cross referencing the soldier numbers with the Chelsea pension records:

6192 James Kelly (discharged)
Number attached to John Wells discharged from Scots guards in 1876-will re-check later

6935 James Kelly (joined at 30)
:James KELLY Year of birth:1864
Place of birth:St Leonard, Bridgnorth, Shropshire
Previous service in Cheshire Regiment
joined Scots Guards 28th Sept. 1885 at Shrewsbury aged 21 years 2 months, a farm labourer.
discharged from army in 1892 (including reserves)
Next of kin-mother- Ann Kelly -address-84 Cartway Bridgenorth Shropshire.

7734 James Kelly
unable to trace by number-will come back to him

5857 James Kelly
This number is linked to William Kelly b 1864 Kildare, Kildare Wicklow
Attestation date 5 Oct 1883 Scots Guards
age at attestation 19 years 4 months
occupation-weaver
Previously served in 3rd East Lancashire Regiment
Roman Catholic
discharged 30th Sept. 1895-12 years service (including reserves)
next of kin William Kelly 10 Plymouth street Blackburn Lancashire

5786 Patrick Kelly (joined reserve)

Patrick Kelly b 1860 in Jonesborough Newry Armagh
age at attestation 23
attestation date 17 Aug 1883 Scots Guards
previous service in Royal irish Rifles
deserted in 1886 rejoined regiment in 1887
discharged March 1889
next of kin brother James [cross after this name and John older written in] living in Jonesborough Armagh

[lynn cates]

Kelley

Hello Debs. A very good idea.

How many variants are considered? Were there any Kelleys?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

all of them

Hello (again) Debs. It occurs to me that, given a fairly manageable finite number of 2nd battalion Scots guards, I wonder if those of us who have ancestry could do a search of each one and find connections?

Do you have an approximate figure?

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. A very good idea.

How many variants are considered? Were there any Kelleys?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,
Thanks, I'm just going by Neal's original list for now; men attested 1885-mid 1888 shown on the muster roll.
Neal's list does include some variants of the name as you can see, so I am sure he thought to look for names such as Kelley etc. as well.

The pension records are on Find my past if anyone else want to help research this. My sub runs out next month again so I'm trying to look at as many as I can now.
There were approx. 3,000 men attested to the Scots Guards (all battalions) between 1868 and 1888.

It would be worth stretching to Kellys attested before 1885 as well at some point, but not later than 88 of course.

[Chris Scott]

Many thanks for this Debs
Your research work is much appreciated and explores avenues that may well yield results
Chris

[lynn cates]

dates

Hello Debs. Thanks. 3000 are a bit much.

Yes, I agree that one could go back a tad before 1885. He may have been there longer.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Next lot

7607 Patrick Kelly (deserted)

This number is linked to Michael Kelly b 1868 in Tralee Tralee, Creiry [Kerry?]
attested at London 8 July 1887 aged 19 years 10 months
occupation groom
deserted 1887 rejoined 1891 discharged 1893?
educated at Christian Brothers School
next of kin Susan [no surname] mother 55 High St Tralee Kerry

6374 Michael Kelly (on 1881 census shown as age 21, born Stirling, Scotland)

Michael Kelly b 1865 Maycullen Galway, Galway
attested 26th May 1884 age 19 years 4 months at Hamilton [Lanarkshire]
discharged 1896
next of kin father Bryan[?] Kelly 71 Str??field Blantyre [Lanarkshire]


7623 Robert Kelly (join reserve)

Robert Kelly b 1864 in troon Ayrshire
attested 18 July 1887 aged 23 years 3 months at London
occupation tailor
imprisoned frequently between 88 and 89
next of kin John Kelly, father and Marian Rodgers, mother-12 University ?? Glasgow


7754 Patrick O’Kelly (joined reserve)

Patrick O'Kelly b 1868 Cork, Cork
attested 2 Sept. 1887 aged 19 years 4 months at London
occupation labourer
discharged in 1899 and rejoined colours 1900 to 1903
next of kin Timothy Kelly father of Cork
wife [of Patrick] Julia, 57 Heath Rd Lambeth

[Debra A]

Many thanks for this Debs
Your research work is much appreciated and explores avenues that may well yield results
Chris

Thanks Chris.

[Debra A]

last one

This is the last one that appears on Neal's list.
The others either don't show with the number noted or not at all in the records when searched by name.There appears to have been some mixing up of the soldier's numbers.
A check of men named Kelly and variants attested to the Scots Guards 1868-1888 on the pension records shows 12 only, not all them were serving in 1888, however.


"4751 I failed to write down the name but it would not have been Henry, John, or Johnto? (to army reserve)"

Neil Kelly b 1858 Barony Glasgow
attested 23 April 1879 at London age 21 years 6 months
released from 2nd Lanark Militia
occupation labourer
transfered to reserves 1885
discharged 91
next of kin, mother, Bridgett Kelly [next address section illegible to me] Glasgow

[lynn cates]

different battalion

Hello Debs. Sounds a bit awkward, but I wonder if there is even a slim chance that it was Scots Guards, but NOT 2nd battalion?

Cheers.
LC

[Livia]

Sorry Debs. I didn't see this new thread
until after I'd posted on the other.

Originally Posted by Livia
Mine has nothing on yours, Debs!

From Wiki:

In 1885, the 2nd Battalion took part in the Suakin
Expedition to the Sudan, taking part in the Battle
of Hasheen, and gaining the battle honour Suakin 1885
for their part in the campaign. [a J. Kelly, regimental
number 91*, is listed in the medals rolls as having
participated in this expedition] The battalion returned
home to the peace and quiet of the UK in late 1885
and took part in Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee Military
Review in 1887.

Wasn't MJK hooked up with Barnett by this time and
wouldn't the Military Review take place in London along
with the other celebrations of the Queen's Golden Jubilee?

Debs, since it appears that Henry John Joseph Kelly was
known as "Johnto", is it possible that he enlisted under
the name John rather than Henry?

In 1881, the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards was stationed
in South Chelsea Barracks along with the 2nd Battalion
"Genadie" Guards (Grenadier? Genadie is how it's written
on the front page which describes the enumeration
district). There are three Kellys in the 2nd Scots Guards,
Michael (b. Scotland), Edwin (b. Scotland) and William
(b. Westmeath, Ireland), no John or Henry. But
there is a John Kelly, private soldier, b. Longford
Ireland in c. 1858 in the 2nd Batt "Genadie" Guards.
I know these guys could transfer between battalions.
But when they retired, would their records be filed
under their final battalion, or the one they started out in?

*Most regimental numbers seem to be four digits,
odd that his is only two.

This military stuff is not my forte, and I know you've
been working on this for a while now, so I'll defer
to your greater knowledge on this one.

Liv

Thanks for all this Liv. I'll check it out and see if there are any records for the men you've identified and post them to the Kellys in the Scots Guard thread.
Usually the final battalion and regiment before discharge and pension is recorded in the ones I've looked at but other regiments served in are noted and can also be checked independently.

These two are on Neal's list:

5352 William Kelly b. Westmeath, Ireland
6374 Michael Kelly b. Sterling, Scotland

This one might be Killey, hard to say,
the dot appears to the left of the "i"
or "e", might be a defect on the sheet
or on the film.

1881 census Chelsea Barracks 2nd B Scots Guards

Edwin Kelly b. Lanarkshire, Scotland, age 23, occupation miner

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. Sounds a bit awkward, but I wonder if there is even a slim chance that it was Scots Guards, but NOT 2nd battalion?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn, there's no way to distinguish between Battalions in the searches so the 12 men named Kelly (and variants) I mentioned are just Scots Guards attested between 1868 and 1888 and cover both Battalions. Neal's list covered just the 2nd batallion I believe.
I'll try and post the details of the men not of Neal's list but on mine later on tonight.

Hi Liv,no worries, thanks for posting it here too. I couldn't find an Edwin Kelly in any regiment with a quick fiddle earlier, but I'll have a look properly later with different spellings.

[lynn cates]

covered

Hello Debs. Thanks. Then that approach is covered.

Cheers.
LC