Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Carol]

Thanks, Carol.
I was just interested to see that there is a nickname Jonto and it is connected to a certain surname-Johnston/Johnson as I wondered earlier.

I'm a bit fed up now to be honest and my posts seem to be about as welcome as a fart in a lift lately anyway. So I might have a little rest for a while now.
Nice talking to you though.

Hello Debs,
You are one of my favourite posters, you know. I look forward to reading every one. Please don't stay away too long. I'm going to miss you.
Carol

[Garry Wroe]

I was just interested to see that there is a nickname Jonto and it is connected to a certain surname-Johnston/Johnson as I wondered earlier.

Which to my mind is infinitely more plausible than the appellation Johnto being applied to someone named Henry Kelly. It would be interesting if someone could establish precisely when Kelly first made mention of 'Johnto'. If it was before the soldier's visit, it may well relate to her real brother and therefore indicate that her family name was Johnston or suchlike. If afterwards it might be a clue as to the real name of the soldier visitor.

Just a thought.

[lynn cates]

cover story

Hello Garry.

"From what I recall of Barnett's newspaper interviews, Lynn, I very much doubt that he ever read these letters."

I'm with you there. But having never met Johnto nor read his letters, why would MJ need a cover story?

Cheers.

LC

[Cogidubnus]

You are one of my favourite posters, you know. I look forward to reading every one. Please don't stay away too long. I'm going to miss you.

I'd second that!

Dave

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

I would like to know [not that anyone can tell me] why Mrs Elizabeth Phoenix, who made a statement at Leman Street police station on 11th November, was not called next day to the Kelly inquest.

She had far more intimate details of MJK's past life than did Barnett, yet hadn't mentioned the brother in the Scots Guards.

Regards,

Simon

[Robert]

Debs, it's funnier if you say "fart in a spacesuit" and yes, your posts are welcome and no, you mustn't take a break - unless it's to do some doughnuts?

[Debra A]

Hello Debs,
You are one of my favourite posters, you know. I look forward to reading every one. Please don't stay away too long. I'm going to miss you.
Carol

I'd second that!

Mum, dad...I told you not to ever post me on casebook!

Bless you both. x

Robert..yes, that is much funnier! I always forget jokes and punchlines.

I was only going to take a break from the Scots Guards for a while. There's some extreme ironing I need to take of.

[lynn cates]

extended

Hello Debs. That's good to hear. I thought you meant "Take a break until some part of Barnett's story were confirmed."

That would be far too long a holiday. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Very well, but if you interpolate the rest of the phrase, "known amongst his comrades as" it flows much less well.

Hi Lynn.
What it also suggests is, that his family still knew him as Henry, but only in the army could he choose to be known by his second name, John, like his father.

Incidently, alternate names, first names & surnames, was somewhat common in the military. I'm not surprised Henry Kelly cannot be found, disappointed yes, but soldiers and sailors used false names, even up to the 1st World War.
It is not suspicious, and certainly does not mean someone was lying, using alternate names was a fact of life. A fact that modern researchers need to take into account.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

alternately speaking

Hello Jon. You are correct about alternate names. But surely the correct version would be required for the military?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Correct names? Identified how?

Not necessarily Lynn...have you considered the bounty jumpers who signed up/deserted multiple times? This was no new phenomenon...It was common during the Napoleonic Wars and continued throughout the 19th Century (and contrary to that which some revisionists claim it certainly was NOT latterly a US only issue).

Dave

[lynn cates]

good point

Hello Dave. I think that's right. In various wars, the underaged have been able to pass off as older, just to enlist. Good point.

Cheers.
LC

[Garry Wroe]

But having never met Johnto nor read his letters, why would MJ need a cover story?

It's about the bigger picture, Lynn. Kelly was not the fragrant rose that many would have us believe. She was clearly exploiting Barnett (who was paying the rent and putting food on the table), seeing at least two other men behind his back and prostituting herself against his express wishes. One of the locals who claimed to have been in the know also stated that Kelly had tired of Barnett and couldn't bear him near her.

Let's assume, purely for the sake of argument, that Kelly did meet a soldier who was enjoying a period of leave in London. The two spent a couple of days together and then corresponded after he'd returned to his regiment. The plan was to meet up again come the soldier's next period of leave. Kelly could hardly tell Barnett that she was intending to spend a couple of days drinking and sleeping with her new fancy man, so concocted the tale concerning her soldier brother to provide an innocent explanation for what was a less than innocent assignation.

Again, it's about the bigger picture. The evidence does not support the notion that she was visited either by her father or brother. Had this been the case both would have known that she was living in the East End under the name of Mary Kelly, and one or the other would have come forward on learning of her death. But someone knew her as Mary Kelly of Miller's Court. The Irish correspondence renders this a certainty. The problem here is that this person couldn't have been one of her family members. Not only did he or she fail to come forward, but Kelly's immediate family had relocated to Wales years earlier. Thus to my mind the most plausible explanation is that the Irish correspondent was Kelly's soldier fancy man, who was almost certainly attached to the Scots Guards at the time and thus stationed in Ireland.

[lynn cates]

2 out of 3 ain't bad

Hello Garry.

"Kelly was not the fragrant rose that many would have us believe. She was clearly exploiting Barnett (who was paying the rent and putting food on the table), seeing at least two other men behind his back"

Well, if you mean Fleming, I'm not sure it was behind her back as he was fully cognisant of her fondness for, and spending time with, him.

"The evidence does not support the notion that she was visited either by her father or brother."

Completely agree here. I don't believe ANY of her family came to see her.

"But someone knew her as Mary Kelly of Miller's Court. The Irish correspondence renders this a certainty. The problem here is that this person couldn't have been one of her family members."

Again, I totally agree. But I don't see an implication to a soldier boyfriend.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. You are correct about alternate names. But surely the correct version would be required for the military?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
There have been cases where a serviceman died and next of kin was not notified because he signed up under an alternate name. This has happened more than once.
A young man signing up in the military (not today obviously), has the opportunity to become someone else. If he never liked his christian name, he takes one he does like. If Henry didn't like "Henry", and he prefered John, like his father, then thats what he used. There's nothing at all mysterious, unbelievable or suspicious about this.

What we have developing here is along the lines of what occured with the GSG. Where someone runs away with the idea that "Juwes" was spelled "Juives" and a whole line of hypothesees emerge to try justify this false line of reasoning.

Here we have a comment by Barnett, which mentions Kelly's father's name - John. And, that her brother Henry was also known as John, like her father.
The writer has demonstrated the idiosyncracy for joining adjacent words together by not lifting the pen off the paper. We see this repeated several times in just a few lines on that very statement.

We can also see that "Johnto" is written, squeezed in, at the very edge of the paper. The writer has not allowed himself the room for space between "John" and "to". Also, the "to" has an extended tail which can happen when a writer scribes two "oo" together. One is fully rounded the second tails off in mid air.

There is no mystery here, we have a writer with a couple of idiosyncracies.

What we do not have is any examples of a bonafide "Johnto" with which to support this "Juives-type" argument.

The Welsh "Yan" is no different to the English "Ian", and its relationship to "John" is equally the same.
We have "Yan/Ian", we even have "Yanto" or "Ianto", but what does not exist is a "Johnto".

Yan or Ian in Welsh or Gaelic might mean the same as John in English but when you express the Welsh Yan as the English John you do not then append the Welsh "to" on the end of an English name, thats just plain silly.

It is futile to insist on a name which does not exist, especially when an obvious solution is staring us in the face.
Sorry, if I am being too blunt, but I call it as I see it.

Regards, Jon S.