Kellys in the Scots Guards

[lynn cates]

spculation

Hello Bridewell. Hmm, speculation--insofar as it guides research--may be a good thing.

John Thomas? Not heard of Johnto for that, but not a bad idea.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hi Bridewell and Lynn,
Thomas has been put forward as both a middle and a surname before, in combination with the first name John.
As far as the Scots Guards go there was one John Thomas serving in 1888 but he was from Shropshire and his father's name was James, so that rules him out I guess.

[Livia]

Hi Debs,

I looked at the Andrew Kellys of Pennsylvania. Without
much information to identify him as James' brother,
there's just too many to be certain. Most came over during
or post-famine years, or around the time of the American
Civil War.

There was one who came over in about 1890,
but he ended up in the Philadelphia Hospital for the Insane
for at least twenty years, probably in the prison wing
(as it says "prison", where occupation should be). So it'd
be unlikely that James would give him as next of kin (unless
he didn't know). Makes for some sad reading.

Sorry.

Liv

[Archaic]

Archaic, there's one man with the surname Henry who was serving in 1888.
James Henry b 1867 Ballynascree Drapcostown Derry (Londonderry)
attested 13 th June 1887 aged 20 years 9 months at Glasgow
discharged 1899
next of kin brother Daniel Newcastle on Tyne

Thanks very much, Debs.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

I looked at the Andrew Kellys of Pennsylvania. Without
much information to identify him as James' brother,
there's just too many to be certain. Most came over during
or post-famine years, or around the time of the American
Civil War.

There was one who came over in about 1890,
but he ended up in the Philadelphia Hospital for the Insane
for at least twenty years, probably in the prison wing
(as it says "prison", where occupation should be). So it'd
be unlikely that James would give him as next of kin (unless
he didn't know). Makes for some sad reading.

Sorry.

Liv

Thanks very much for looking, Liv. I appreciate it.


Anyhoo, I've exhausted all the Kellys in the Scots Guards and none fit the bill.
Any more for any more guesses on the surname?

[Cogidubnus]

Sucking eggs

Hi Debs

I guess you've tried the obvious anglicisations like Queally, Quealy etc?

Dave

[Debra A]

Hi Dave,
I did it the easy way-I put up the whole list of 2875 men attested to any of the battalions of the Scots Guards between 1868 and 1888 and looked at all the ones which looked or sounded even remotely like Kelly to me.

[Cogidubnus]

Yeah, thought you'd've had it covered...(easy she says...who's she kidding?)

All the best

Dave

[Archaic]

Hi Debs.

Is it possible to do a search for members of the Scots Guards who were either born in Ireland or lived in Wales, or would that result in an impossibly large number of men?

Thanks,
Archaic

[Debra A]

Hi all,

Unfortunately, not all of the soldiers listed in the database have a place of birth given in the searchable index, although it does normally appear somewhere in their file.

So, there are 644 men listed as born in various parts of Ireland or no place of birth given in index. Searching with Limerick County [to cover both town and county] narrows it down to 424 records but only one of these men has his place of birth as Limerick County in the index.
That's where trawling comes in...to root out the others.

It's not possible to search the index by residence before attestation or by residence of next of kin.

The one Limerick county born man is John Ward b Askeaton, Limerick 1856.
He enlisted in 1877 at Limerick age 21 and served from 81-89
Wife- Margaret O'Connor married at St. Finbarr Cork 2nd Sept 1882
Place of discharge London.

I'll keep an eye out for others.

[Debra A]

I was wondering about Henry's comrades in the Scots Guards supposedly giving him the name 'Johnto'. I know it's traditional for men with certain surnames to be given a nickname based on their surname in the forces, isn't it? Chalky for White, Smudge for Smith etc. are ones that come to mind.

I'm not too up on whether these nicknames were also based on other characteristics too like the soldiers civilian job or place of birth perhaps or have far this tradition dates back? Is anyone else?

I was just reading that in the 19th century the name 'Millie' was used in Northern Ireland, particularly Belfast, as a name for a female of the working class, earning a living in the linen mills. Using the term 'Millie' in a derogatory way (as it was probably also used in the 19th C) to describe a certain stereotypical female [similar to the English use of 'Chav') has survived in the area.
Interestingly, the male equivalent of 'Millie' is 'Janto'. Could this also be from the 19th Century and denote some type of working class Irish occupation or something similar?

Just a thought.

[Archaic]

Janto

Hi Debs. Thanks for answering my question.

"Janto" sounds like a phonetic variation of the Welsh version of John, "Ianto".

Could it be a nickname that is somehow connected to a traditional Welsh trade like coal-mining?

It also sounds like a variant of the common Eastern European version of "John", which is "Jan". The name "Jan" is particularly prevalent among Poles.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Debra A]

Hi Archaic,
Is Ianto pronounced Yan-toh though? That's what turns me off it as the name Abberline wrote down as 'Johnto' from Barnett's dictation.

I have just noticed from some online obituaries that both Jonto and Janto ( and presumably Johnto) often go hand in hand with the surname Johnston as a nickname in Ireland- Something like Henry 'Jonto' Johnston.

Scott Nelson did suggest to look for Henry Johnson (without the t) a while back and I mentioned Johnston as an alternative because there was a Henry Johnston in the Scots Guards.
There were a few men with the surname Johnson and Johnston in the regiment so I'll look at those next, although Scott may already done it and found nothing.

[Garry Wroe]

The asumption on this thread appears to be that Kelly told the truth when stating that 'Johnto' was her brother. I suggested long ago that he may have been yet another of her fancy men, and that she simply misrepresented the relationship in order to pull the wool over Barnett's eyes. This would certainly explain the letters from Ireland when her family were presumably still resident in Wales, and resolves the mystery as to why no Henry Kelly was found to have been serving in the relevant regiment during the timeframe under scrutiny.

[Debra A]

The asumption on this thread appears to be that Kelly told the truth when stating that 'Johnto' was her brother. I suggested long ago that he may have been yet another of her fancy men, and that she simply misrepresented the relationship in order to pull the wool over Barnett's eyes. This would certainly explain the letters from Ireland when her family were presumably still resident in Wales, and resolves the mystery as to why no Henry Kelly was found to have been serving in the relevant regiment during the timeframe under scrutiny.

Yes, that is the assumption, Garry, because it was originally set up in direct response to a post by Richard Nunweek on another thread. Richard believes that it is a fact that MJK's name was Mary Jane Kelly and that she had a brother 'Johnto' who was in the Scots Guards and took charge of Mary's belongings after her death, as told by Fiona Kendall Lane.