Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Wickerman]

I wouldn't dismiss any out of hand Jon...and I suspect, despite your sophistry, you know it...I merely concurred with Trevor that otherwise unsubstantiated press reports need to be treated with some caution...

Which does not exactly run contrary to what I had wrote;

"Meaning..... we are in no position to discredit, change or discard any one of them until something tangible surfaces to demonstrate any one of those stories holds a minutae of truth."

and which Trevor seemed to object to. Yet you agreed with the objection?

Is this a glass-half-full is not half-empty, type argument?

Let me turn the question...which part of Leather Apron do you find untrue and why?

I hope you're not trying to hi-jack the thread Dave?


Regards, Jon S.

[Garry Wroe]

As I recall, Debra, one newspaper followed up the Rees claims and declared them unconnected with the Miller's Court victim.

[lynn cates]

explosion

Hello Jon. Well, I even looked at the London Bridge explosion of 1884. 3 died, 2 Lomasneys and a Fleming. No Davies.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

discredited

Hello Garry, Jon. Yes, that story was discredited, if I recall properly.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

As I remember it the Mary Jane Rees story went something like this:

The papers reported that 'MJK' had worked for the abortionist Mary Jane Rees, nee Hopkins.
The papers then reported that 'MJK' hadn't in fact worked for Mary Jane Rees but her predecessor the first Mrs Rees.
Inquiries showed that a girl named Kelly had indeed worked for the first Mrs Rees and her husband.
It was noted that she was a native of Llanelli and her father had been marine store dealer.
Her name was Abi Kelly and she did indeed work for the Rees's at some point. Mr Rees even mentioned that he had been to London and seen Abbi there.

Abbi Kelly had in fact married a man named William Muir and emigrated to the US where she has been traced by researchers in the census and ship's passenger lists well after 1888.

[PaulB]

As I remember it the Mary Jane Rees story went something like this:

The papers reported that 'MJK' had worked for the abortionist Mary Jane Rees, nee Hopkins.
The papers then reported that 'MJK' hadn't in fact worked for Mary Jane Rees but her predecessor the first Mrs Rees.
Inquiries showed that a girl named Kelly had indeed worked for the first Mrs Rees and her husband.
It was noted that she was a native of Llanelli and her father had been marine store dealer.
Her name was Abi Kelly and she did indeed work for the Rees's at some point. Mr Rees even mentioned that he had been to London and seen Abbi there.

Abbi Kelly had in fact married a man named William Muir and emigrated to the US where she has been traced by researchers in the census and ship's passenger lists well after 1888.

Hi Debs
There's a few pages about it in The Uncensored Facts.

[Debra A]

Debra

Just for the record

I think her whole life story was a lie and I dont think her real name was Mary Kelly either.

I also dont think her relationship with Barnet was set in stone as some seem to think. Are we to believe that all the time they were supposedly together as an item she never prostitued herself.

Lests face it much of the ripper mystery is centered around lies and deceit either from persons giving false details, to those using aliases, to police officers the list goes on and on.

The parts about Flemming and Morganstone seem to have some basis in truth anyway. Morganstone isn't a name you come across every day, yet we have one in the East End at the right time, we also have a Joseph Flemming who fits what we know.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs
There's a few pages about it in The Uncensored Facts.

Hi Paul, yes, sorry, I didn't mean it to read like the research was mine (although I think finding her on the Teutonic was?).

[Cogidubnus]

I hope you're not trying to hi-jack the thread Dave?

Not at all Jon...just pointing out the obvious...that you don't want to go believing everything you read in the papers...

All the best

Dave

[PaulB]

Hi Paul, yes, sorry, I didn't mean it to read like the research was mine (although I think finding her on the Teutonic was?).

Hi Debs,
It didn't read like that at all. Nor would I ever suggest such a thing! I was just drawing attention to the fact that we have known about that story for a long time and exhaustively researched it, but as I wasn't sure where the story was quickly and easily available I pointed to the book.

Yes, Morganstone, Flemming, and even the far less reliable Mrs Carthy and the unidentified Mrs Buki perhaps confirm the least believable part of Mary Kelly's story, namely working in a high class West End bordello. On balance, onehas to pause and question whether or not she would have been lying about a brother in the Scots Guards. I know I found researching that out to be highly frustrating. It's easier now, of course, with the records being available online.

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Debs. Thanks. I thought the story had been discredited.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Morgestern

Hello (again) Debs. Is that the Adrianus Morgestern who was found near the Stepney gas works?

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,
It didn't read like that at all. Nor would I ever suggest such a thing! I was just drawing attention to the fact that we have known about that story for a long time and exhaustively researched it, but as I wasn't sure where the story was quickly and easily available I pointed to the book.

Yes, Morganstone, Flemming, and even the far less reliable Mrs Carthy and the unidentified Mrs Buki perhaps confirm the least believable part of Mary Kelly's story, namely working in a high class West End bordello. On balance, onehas to pause and question whether or not she would have been lying about a brother in the Scots Guards. I know I found researching that out to be highly frustrating. It's easier now, of course, with the records being available online.

Hi Paul. Oh, I know you weren't, but it's amazing what other people read into a post!
Yes, that's the important thing I wanted to get across. The story hadn't been missed, and no one had found a woman fitting the name and details in Wales... and it has all been well researched donkey's years ago.

It seems to be that she lied to Mrs Carthy though, too? Didn't Mary tell her that she had a two year old daughter, but not living with her?
So, although Flemming, Morgan(stone/stein/stern) might be all genuine people in her recent past, they may have been told the same sorts of lies about her deeper history? But they do seem to confirm the timeline of MJK's life in London, I agree.

Yes, the Scots Guards is frustrating and I bet it is a damn site easier researching the files online! The fact that there's still no easily identifiable Kelly in the Scots Guards is telling, perhaps? Either he gave a false name as has been suggested, or Mary did? ( I still can't understand why her giving a false name is less acceptable than her brother doing it.) Either way without the name or a definite idea of which parts of her background story are true,it becomes very difficult to research.

[Debra A]

Hello (again) Debs. Is that the Adrianus Morgestern who was found near the Stepney gas works?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
I am thinking of the man recently written about by Neal and Jenni Shelden. Sorry, I don't remember too much of the details at present and can't remember which issue of the Examiner the article was in.
But Morganstern/stein/stone are all acceptable variations of the same name I would think?

[Wickerman]

Not at all Jon...just pointing out the obvious...that you don't want to go believing everything you read in the papers...

All the best

Dave

Dave.
Here we go with that 'believe' again, where do I say anything about belief?

The two of you need to talk to a copper (yes, you too Trevor) about the difference between not dismissing something but not believing it either.
All the stories stay on the table because, we cannot tell which one is true and which is false.

I'm really bemused why this is so difficult to understand.


Paul.
I thumbed through both your A-Z & Uncensored Facts last night, yes I'd forgotten you'd covered that little story.

Regards, Jon S.