Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Cogidubnus]

Semi-light

As far as can be determined, Kelly owned half a candle and the clothes she stood up in. So what were these 'possessions' that were allegedly returned to her alleged brother who was allegedly serving in the army?

Garry - what a bloody good question...this is the issue I've always had with the McCarthy story...yeah ok she had a picture... and one or two other possessions...maybe 5lb weight...9d postage + packing costs....why would McCarthy bother? Unless Kelly's "brother" was an officer candidate (unlikely), why would receipt of her possessions threaten his career?

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

So, with respect Jon, what's that to do with what you've lately been posting?

Puzzled

Dave

Thats OK Dave, nothing to do with Kelly's literacy, but everything to do with her having Family in Limerick, and a brother named John.

It could have been either Mark King or Peter Birchwood who sourced those records, but I wondered if it was found to be a dead end, or just filed away.
Just a question Dave.

Well Garry, possessions are whatever she had in her pockets, and the remains of her clothes.

Regards, Jon S.

[Garry Wroe]

Unless Kelly's "brother" was an officer candidate (unlikely), why would receipt of her possessions threaten his career?

Precisely, Dave.

[Garry Wroe]

Well Garry, possessions are whatever she had in her pockets ...

An IOU for thirty shillings.

... and the remains of her clothes.

A few worthless rags, Jon.

[Wickerman]

I'm sorry Jon, perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but this appears to me to be a total contradiction in terms...

Best wishes

Dave

Hi Dave, you're correct I missed this.
I'm not clear what you're are getting at. I made suggestions based on newspaper reports, or how they may not actually contradict each other.

Why do you think we look for a family of Kelly's in Limerick, or for a Mary Kelly, or a dead miner named Davies/Davis around Cardiff?

We do it because we are using the news reports, that is all we have.

Working with them is what we are doing, but when two news stories appear to be contradictory, a suggestion surfaced with a view to discrediting one of them.
I simply made an observation that McCarthy's "letter from Ireland" need not be rejected because some think it conflicts with Barnetts "Mary did not correspond with family" comment.

With all the blood sweat & tears of our excellent team of researchers (dare not name them incase I miss one), but we have nothing conclusive to show for all that effort.
So, we work with the stories until something tangible bares fruit.

Where is the contradiction here?

"Quip"? ...at Debs?, are you kidding?
I was surprised to see Debs respond at what must be midnight over there.

Regards, Jon S.

[Simon Wood]

Lost In Translation?

Hi All,

Barnett's original witness statement—

"The deceased told me on one occasion that her father named John Kelly was a foreman of some iron works at [sic] lived at Carmarthen or Carnarvon, that she had a brother named Henry serving in 2nd Battn. Scots Guards, and known amongst his comrades as Johnto, and I believe the Regiment is now in Ireland . . ."

Barnett mentioned Henry Kelly immediately after John Kelly.

Did he actually say "and known amongst his comrades as John, too" [also known as John]?

Merely a thought.

Regards,

Simon

[Wickerman]

Simon, don't be surprised if someone accuses you of taking a bribe....

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

This is Ripperology.

Nothing would surprise me.

Regards,

Simon

[Wickerman]

As far as can be determined, Kelly owned half a candle and the clothes she stood up in. So what were these 'possessions' that were allegedly returned to her alleged brother who was allegedly serving in the army?

Is this assuming the Kendal-lane story is true?
I mean, you are not referring to a contemporary source with that question?

Thanks, Jon S.

[Debra A]

"Quip"? ...at Debs?, are you kidding?
I was surprised to see Debs respond at what must be midnight over there.

Regards, Jon S.

Yes, Jon. Up well past my bedtime again, I was. What a naughty little girl I am!
Meanwhile I see Simon has been napping

[Debra A]

Hi All,

Barnett's original witness statement—

"The deceased told me on one occasion that her father named John Kelly was a foreman of some iron works at [sic] lived at Carmarthen or Carnarvon, that she had a brother named Henry serving in 2nd Battn. Scots Guards, and known amongst his comrades as Johnto, and I believe the Regiment is now in Ireland . . ."

Barnett mentioned Henry Kelly immediately after John Kelly.

Did he actually say "and known amongst his comrades as John, too" [also known as John]?

Merely a thought.

Regards,

Simon

Hi all.
Does anyone else wonder why this specific bit of Barnett's statement- 'known among his comrades as 'Johnto', does not appear to have been mentioned at the inquest or reported in the papers? That there was a brother in the Scots Guards was well reported and all the other bits and bobs Barnett gave information on, but this is missing.

It can't just be because Abberline got it wrong and mistakenly wrote 'Johnto' for 'John too' while taking Barnett's statement because none of the papers reported that Mary had a brother in the Scots Guards known by his comrades as John, either.
Was this info deliberatley not reported or mentioned at inquest?

[Debra A]

C'mon, wake up Debs...

Do you remember if this line of enquiry was ever pursued?



It is one of the oldest results we've had on Casebook but for the life of me I cannot remember who sourced it out.

Thanks, Jon S.

Wasn't it the Parlours who did that research originally? Not sure, but I think they mention it in their book.

What people seem to be forgetting is, if we are sticking to Mary's story as the absolute 'truth' then we must find a brother in the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards, and there is no Kelly who fits the bill. So, he gave a false name they cry, but why is it more believable that Henry Kelly gave a false name to join up rather than MJK gave a false name?
Which of these two groups- a Whitechapel unfortunate, or a soldier, is more likely to have given a false name?
And if her name was false then looking for the family is like looking for a needle in a haystack, evn if the rest of the story is true. They could be called anything!

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

A needle in a haystack.

I agree with you, except that I doubt the presence of a needle.

Like so many other aspects of the Ripper mystery, the quest for Henry/John/Johnto Kelly is a fool's errand.

Regards,

Simon

[PaulB]

Hi Debra,

A needle in a haystack.

I agree with you, except that I doubt the presence of a needle.

Like so many other aspects of the Ripper mystery, the quest for Henry/John/Johnto Kelly is a fool's errand.

Regards,

Simon

Why do you think it is a fool's errand? Barnett lied?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Paul,

Barnett lied? Why not? And, if true, should we really be surprised?

What characterizes the WM is its overwhelming number of dead ends, red herrings, obvious lies and evasions, misrememberings, contradictions, confusions and conflations.

Regards,

Simon