The ALLEGED photograph of the Kelly family

[Debra A]

Hi Robert and Bridewell,
There's a couple of biographies of Emma Hamilton that call her the "Fair Emma", that's where I got the idea from.
Perhaps someone thought MJKs story was similar to Emma's? A young poor girl from Wales who came to London to seek her fortune?

Or because she was tall with long auburn hair?

[Bridewell]

Romney

Interesting your mentioning art, Debs. There's an 1889 Times art item which says that Romney was never tired of painting his fair Emma - but whether the writer is adding the "fair" or whether the Emma in question was known as Fair Emma, I've no idea.

I like that, Robert, because the Emma in question was Emma Hamilton. Sir William Hamilton nicknamed Emma "the fair tea-maker of Edgeware Row", & Nelson had a Romney portrait of Emma with him at Trafalgar I believe.



This is the best-known Romney portrait, I believe. As for MJK - was her surname Hamilton? Did she bear a facial resemblance to Emma Hamilton?
It could be sarcastic, of course, as Emma Hamilton was enormously fat in later years.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Robert]

Interesting your mentioning art, Debs. There's an 1889 Times art item which says that Romney was never tired of painting his fair Emma - but whether the writer is adding the "fair" or whether the Emma in question was known as Fair Emma, I've no idea.

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,

I was thinking of Emma Hamilton, but couldn't understand why! She was certainly an outstanding beauty in her day &, allegedly, used to meet Nelson at the Gun, down by the river.

Regards, Bridewell.

A connection to Flintshire perhaps? Or the talent she apparently showed in art, which was true of Emma too?

[Bridewell]

Blimey

Hi Bridewell,
I was wondering if being called 'fair Emma' was connected to an historical figure in some way, like you get 'carroty Nell' or 'ginger Nell' for women with red hair?
Emma Hamilton?

Hi Debra,

I was thinking of Emma Hamilton, but couldn't understand why! She was certainly an outstanding beauty in her day &, allegedly, used to meet Nelson at the Gun, down by the river.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Robert]

Unlikely I know, but could it have been a play on her initials - Mary of Miller's?

[Debra A]

Going back to MJK, I keep wondering why a girl named Mary would have the nickname, "Fair Emma". Unfortunately I can't find an Emma Kelly born at the right time in Limerick either!

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell,
I was wondering if being called 'fair Emma' was connected to an historical figure in some way, like you get 'carroty Nell' or 'ginger Nell' for women with red hair?
Emma Hamilton?

[Debra A]

Hello Debs and Livs,

I'm finding your research with regard to Johnto very interesting indeed. I have a photostat copy (reduced size) of the duplicate Attestation of my paternal grandfather, Frederick William Sanders, dated the 26th March 1896, when he joined the 2nd Battalion Royal Warwick Regiment at the age of 19 years 5 months. I'm afraid I'm unable to post the document but I'll attempt to write what I feel is relevant to the discussion with regard to term of service, etc.

At the time of 'signing on' my grandfather worked as a Turner, and was also in the Militia, namely the 3rd Battalion Royal Warwick. The Militia was a military force raised from the civil population to supplement the regular army in an emergency, a forerunner of the Territorial Army.

His enlistment number was 4670. At the top of the Attestation is the following:

SHORT SERVICE
(7 years with the Colours, and 5 years in the Reserve, or, if the man completes his 7 years' service with the Colours while beyond the seas, then for a further period , not exceeding one year, with the Colours, and the remainder of the 12 years in the Reserve).

Then under 17a) is the following:

'For the term of twelve years, for the first seven years in Army Service and for the remaining five years in the First Class of the Army Reserve, or if at the termination of such period of Army Service you are serving beyond the seas, then for a further period not exceeding one year in Army Service and for the remaining portion of such period of twelve years in the First Class of the Army Reserve.'

Thirteen months later on the 26th April, 1897, at his own request, grandfather was discharged by purchase from Her Majesty's Army on the payment by his father of £18 (eighteen pounds).

Two years later on the 14th April 1899 he was attested yet again into the Army, joining the 2nd Battalion Leicestershire Regiment. On the 12th December 1899 great-grandfather Sanders was refunded £12 (twelve pounds) by the Army.

Grandfather then went on to complete 21 years of service in the Army and a further six years service in the RAF.

Carol

Hi Carol,
Thanks very much for this snippet, very interesting and it illustrates what I mentioned earlier; that even if a soldier paid himself out it shows in the records.
Did you ever find out why your grandfather bought himself out after 18 months the first time but later re-enlisted and went on to serve 21 years?

[Bridewell]

Married

Hello Brenda,

Although her husband was still alive, it seems that Catherine Eddowes used her maiden name, as well as her married name Conway, and that of Kelly, her man friend.

Best wishes

Phìl

Hi Phil,

Has anyone ever found evidence that Kate & Conway were actually married?

Going back to MJK, I keep wondering why a girl named Mary would have the nickname, "Fair Emma". Unfortunately I can't find an Emma Kelly born at the right time in Limerick either!

Regards, Bridewell.

[Carol]

Hello Debs and Livs,

I'm finding your research with regard to Johnto very interesting indeed. I have a photostat copy (reduced size) of the duplicate Attestation of my paternal grandfather, Frederick William Sanders, dated the 26th March 1896, when he joined the 2nd Battalion Royal Warwick Regiment at the age of 19 years 5 months. I'm afraid I'm unable to post the document but I'll attempt to write what I feel is relevant to the discussion with regard to term of service, etc.

At the time of 'signing on' my grandfather worked as a Turner, and was also in the Militia, namely the 3rd Battalion Royal Warwick. The Militia was a military force raised from the civil population to supplement the regular army in an emergency, a forerunner of the Territorial Army.

His enlistment number was 4670. At the top of the Attestation is the following:

SHORT SERVICE
(7 years with the Colours, and 5 years in the Reserve, or, if the man completes his 7 years' service with the Colours while beyond the seas, then for a further period , not exceeding one year, with the Colours, and the remainder of the 12 years in the Reserve).

Then under 17a) is the following:

'For the term of twelve years, for the first seven years in Army Service and for the remaining five years in the First Class of the Army Reserve, or if at the termination of such period of Army Service you are serving beyond the seas, then for a further period not exceeding one year in Army Service and for the remaining portion of such period of twelve years in the First Class of the Army Reserve.'

Thirteen months later on the 26th April, 1897, at his own request, grandfather was discharged by purchase from Her Majesty's Army on the payment by his father of £18 (eighteen pounds).

Two years later on the 14th April 1899 he was attested yet again into the Army, joining the 2nd Battalion Leicestershire Regiment. On the 12th December 1899 great-grandfather Sanders was refunded £12 (twelve pounds) by the Army.

Grandfather then went on to complete 21 years of service in the Army and a further six years service in the RAF.

Carol

[Debra A]

Mine has nothing on yours, Debs!

From Wiki:

In 1885, the 2nd Battalion took part in the Suakin Expedition to the Sudan, taking part in the Battle of Hasheen,
and gaining the battle honour Suakin 1885 for their part in the campaign. [a J. Kelly, regimental number 91*, is
listed in the medals rolls as having participated in this expedition] The battalion returned home to the peace and
quiet of the UK in late 1885 and took part in Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee Military Review in 1887.

Wasn't MJK hooked up with Barnett by this time and
wouldn't the Military Review take place in London along
with the other celebrations of the Queen's Golden Jubilee?

Debs, since it appears that Henry John Joseph Kelly was
known as "Johnto", is it possible that he enlisted under
the name John rather than Henry?

In 1881, the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards was stationed
in South Chelsea Barracks along with the 2nd Battalion
"Genadie" Guards (Grenadier? Genadie is how it's written
on the front page which describes the enumeration
district). There are three Kellys in the 2nd Scots Guards,
Michael (b. Scotland), Edwin (b. Scotland) and William
(b. Westmeath, Ireland), no John or Henry. But
there is a John Kelly, private soldier, b. Longford
Ireland in c. 1858 in the 2nd Batt "Genadie" Guards.
I know these guys could transfer between battalions.
But when they retired, would their records be filed
under their final battalion, or the one they started out in?

*Most regimental numbers seem to be four digits,
odd that his is only two.

This military stuff is not my forte, and I know you've
been working on this for a while now, so I'll defer
to your greater knowledge on this one.

Liv

Thanks for all this Liv. I'll check it out and see if there are any records for the men you've identified and post them to the Kellys in the Scots Guard thread.
Usually the final battalion and regiment before discharge and pension is recorded in the ones I've looked at but other regiments served in are noted and can also be checked independently.

[Livia]

I admire your stamina, Liv! Good work, as always.

Mine has nothing on yours, Debs!

From Wiki:

In 1885, the 2nd Battalion took part in the Suakin Expedition to the Sudan, taking part in the Battle of Hasheen,
and gaining the battle honour Suakin 1885 for their part in the campaign. [a J. Kelly, regimental number 91*, is
listed in the medals rolls as having participated in this expedition] The battalion returned home to the peace and
quiet of the UK in late 1885 and took part in Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee Military Review in 1887.

Wasn't MJK hooked up with Barnett by this time and
wouldn't the Military Review take place in London along
with the other celebrations of the Queen's Golden Jubilee?

Debs, since it appears that Henry John Joseph Kelly was
known as "Johnto", is it possible that he enlisted under
the name John rather than Henry?

In 1881, the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards was stationed
in South Chelsea Barracks along with the 2nd Battalion
"Genadie" Guards (Grenadier? Genadie is how it's written
on the front page which describes the enumeration
district). There are three Kellys in the 2nd Scots Guards,
Michael (b. Scotland), Edwin (b. Scotland) and William
(b. Westmeath, Ireland), no John or Henry. But
there is a John Kelly, private soldier, b. Longford
Ireland in c. 1858 in the 2nd Batt "Genadie" Guards.
I know these guys could transfer between battalions.
But when they retired, would their records be filed
under their final battalion, or the one they started out in?

*Most regimental numbers seem to be four digits,
odd that his is only two.

This military stuff is not my forte, and I know you've
been working on this for a while now, so I'll defer
to your greater knowledge on this one.

Liv

[Debra A]

Not if Marie Jeanette Kelly's father died when she was young and her mother remarried. Then the younger children would have a different last name.

Well anything is possible if we go outside the accepted story. That was kind of my point in my second post.

[curious]

If her real name was Marie Jeanette Kelly as you say and you believe her brother was in the Scots Guards, then he would also have the surname Kelly, and there is no one in that regiment in 1888 who fits with the story as far as we know.

Not if Marie Jeanette Kelly's father died when she was young and her mother remarried. Then the younger children would have a different last name.

[Debra A]

I just found an old post in the archives by Neal Shelden that gives the names and numers of all men with the surname Kelly or McCarthy in 2nd Battalion Scots Guards from Muster Rolls 1885-mid 1888.
I just realised that I can use the numbers Neal recorded from these records to check their pension records with fuller details.
I will start a new thead later today. It might draw a blank but worth it for ruling out too I think?....if it works!

Thanks Neal!