Relatives

[Debra A]

SPE's original post is here:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=39307&postcount=55

[jason_c]

SPE's original post is here:
http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...7&postcount=55

Thanks for the link. As someone who has a distinguishing "malformed" ear I was never convinced about the hair misheard as ears argument.

I cant really tell from the picture Chris posted if her ear is malformed to any extent. Anyone else have an opinion on it?

[Cogidubnus]

Thanks for that link Debra - Can't speak for anyone else but it's certainly cleared up a misapprehension for me!

Dave

[Robert]

Thanks Debs (and Stewart). I wonder if that might be a hereditary feature in the family Chris is in contact with.

[jason_c]

Thanks Debs (and Stewart). I wonder if that might be a hereditary feature in the family Chris is in contact with.

Does her sister Bridget have a slightly misshapen right ear? To me it looks kinked at the top.

[Robert]

It seems to look that way, Jason.

[Wickerman]

One of the press interviews mentioned Mary Kelly had either, an overbite or prominent teeth (buckteeth?).

Regards, Jon S.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Chris.
Many thanks again for the shot of the ear , all of this is terribly important in accessing any claim made by the owner of the photograph.
I do[ without viewing] have a gut feeling that this could be the real deal, albeit cautious, the teeth shape would be of great importance if indeed a false tooth was prominent.
Talking technically , is it not possible to colourize a old photograph which would give possible hair colouring for example.?
This could be a tremendous find Chris,and I pray to god it is, it would be respectful in memory to this poor woman , if we can show her as a living soul.
Regards Richard.

[miss marple]

Joseph Barnett could not possibly identified Mary by her ears as in Dr Bond's post mortem report.
Her ears had been partly cut off. This is fact.
Barnett probably said 'air' instead of in a cockney accent. Her hair was her most identifiable feature.
Beyond that, concentrate on Mary's history, she died in 1888 age 25, She came from a poor working class Irish family who moved to Wales to find work. Her father worked in a mine, she maybe married a miner. If she moved to Cardiff in the early 80s and was in London by 1884. That photo would have to date from very early 80s before her breach from her family when she was a teenager.
So a very poor teenager has a photo taken, wearing fashionable middle class clothes of a fashion some 15 years in the future, loaded down with expensive jewellery.

With her background I find that impossible to believe.
Miss Marple

PS fashion was much slower in Victorian times, women wore the same clothes for years and sometimes' turned' their dresses, which meant when they faded on the outside were resewn with the fabric reversed outside.A working class women from the early eighties would not be wearing those clothes.

[jason_c]

Joseph Barnett could not possibly identified Mary by her ears as in Dr Bond's post mortem report.
Her ears had been partly cut off. This is fact.
Barnett probably said 'air' instead of in a cockney accent. Her hair was her most identifiable feature.
Beyond that, concentrate on Mary's history, she died in 1888 age 25, She came from a poor working class Irish family who moved to Wales to find work. Her father worked in a mine, she maybe married a miner. If she moved to Cardiff in the early 80s and was in London by 1884. That photo would have to date from very early 80s before her breach from her family when she was a teenager.
So a very poor teenager has a photo taken, wearing fashionable middle class clothes of a fashion some 15 years in the future, loaded down with expensive jewellery.

With her background I find that impossible to believe.
Miss Marple

PS fashion was much slower in Victorian times, women wore the same clothes for years and sometimes' turned' their dresses, which meant when they faded on the outside were resewn with the fabric reversed outside.A working class women from the early eighties would not be wearing those clothes.

The ears being partly cut off does not mean they could not have been recognized by Barnett. We now seem to have multiple sources for this claim.

The rest of your post may be correct. The clothes appear to be a bit out of date at first glance.
We should also remember though Kelly's economic circumstances were more comfortable in the mid-eighties than they were in 1888. Would a high class photographer own certain "outfits" for his clients to wear?

[Debra A]

Joseph Barnett could not possibly identified Mary by her ears as in Dr Bond's post mortem report.
Her ears had been partly cut off. This is fact.
Barnett probably said 'air' instead of in a cockney accent. Her hair was her most identifiable feature.

I was thinking a bit about this last night after I posted a link to SPE's post.
It was officially recorded at the inquest that Barnett said ear, there's no doubt about that we can see it in the document posted by SPE, and official documentation should take precedence over newspaper reports as Stewart rightly says. But, I must confess, I did wonder myself if it could still have been misheard and recorded wrongly, even by an official?Was inquest testimony written down by someone listening to the evidence and taking it down as it was given?
It must have been difficult to distinguish what Barnett said otherwise we wouldn't get the same mistake being made in the newspaper inquest reportings would we? Some reporters heard ear, some hair.

On the other hand, Mary's hair, according to one source, was supposedly a distinguishing feature because of it's extraordinary length. Stewart also posted an account given by someone who attended the inquest who says Barnett elaborated on the ear identification by saying Mary's ears were a peculiar shape. So we have two similar anecdotal sources about two different features of Mary's?

[Fisherman]

Maybe Barnett said "her rear"...?

Fisherman

[lynn cates]

confirmation

Hello Miss Marple.

"With her background I find that impossible to believe."

Well, have we confirmation as yet regarding any of Barnett's story about MJK?

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

We have here a woman with a deformed ear, remarkable hair, and possibly buck teeth and remarkable eyes. Yet she's a mystery. Oh well.

[Chris Scott]

I was contacted today by the lady who sent me the alleged Kelly pic and she has agreed that - although she absolutely does NOT want the image posted on a public forum - I can send it to a small number of people to see and get their reaction.
I hate to do things this way - all this cloak and dagger stuff is alien to me and I like to be open with material - but I do feel obliged to honour her wishes in this as she was under no obligation to send the image to me.
I am sending the image to 3 people ( a completely arbitrary figure) and will be interested to see their reactions which I have asked them to post here.
As I emphasised to the people I sent this to I hold no brief for the authenticity of this image for or against - if I had my way I would post it openly and let folks make of it what they would.
Please bear with me in this protracted business.
Chris