2ND battalion Scot's guards

[lynn cates]

site

Hello Dave. You found that site too?

I think there were about 7 Davies at Pen-y-Craig alone.

Say, do you have Chris Scott's book on MJK?

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

I always thought it a bit odd that MJK would have married so young without her being pregnant, does anyone else?
A 16 year old could bring much needed extra income into a probably poor working class family home? Why would her parents give their permission for her to be married at 16 if it wasn't absolutely necessary? I think it would be an unusual situation if she was allowed to.

[Wickerman]

One less mouth to feed though Debs. We don't know what the Kelly's financial situation was, but I suppose we can guess.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

That Book...

Hi Lynn

No...I'm afraid not, and I haven't read it either...worth buying would you say?

It's pitch black outside, but I have a warm fire and a bottle...what more could a man want? (Don't go there...I'm getting past all that!)

[Cogidubnus]

A 16 year old could bring much needed extra income into a probably poor working class family home?

Hi Debra...think I recall seeing somewhere that whilst boys around the place could be sent out to work, girls were seen as a liability...I don't think 16 would necessarily be seen to be that early in those days...I think it was only in 1929 that the minimum age for matrimony was raised to 16!

I may be wrong (my wife tells me I often am!)

All the best
Dave

[Debra A]

One less mouth to feed though Debs. We don't know what the Kelly's financial situation was, but I suppose we can guess.

Regards, Jon S.

True, Jon, but what another earner brings in far out weighs the cost of feeding them?
I'm guessing working class with several children to feed (how many boys were there?) although Mary could have been the youngest,so that wouldn't apply. A better class with better earnings and I think we would see the parents being even more against a marriage at 16?
The average age of marriage for a female in that period was about aged 25,marriage at 16 must have been rare then and against the norm?
Just a quick look in 81 and 91 in Wales shows at max 2 females aged 16 and married and majority with children.
I'm not saying I'm right, it's just that after years of mainly LVP based research and doing genealogy it just doesn't seem to ring true to me.

Dave, I think girls were often sent off into service from age 14. A girl could marry young but she had to have her parents consent up until the age of 21 I believe, when she was then classed as 'full age.'

[lynn cates]

great buy

Hello Dave. Yes. Cheap at twice the price. It's a great place to find how much research has been done on MJK and what conclusions may be drawn.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Debra

Yes I'm aware the average age for women for a formal marriage was 25.1 years...what I'm genuinely not aware of is how that figure was calculated...was that first marriages only? If it included second marriages, did it include the huge second marriage bulge (particularly among Jewish women), of the 1870/1880s?

From various websites it appears that formal marriages could be concluded at an age as low as 11/12 years...I really don't know...one site I visited even suggested a theoretical 7 years old for a bride (but did mercifully say the marriage could only be legally consumated at 16 years)...I really don't know...

But significantly, among the vast number of other things I don't know, is whether the Kelly/Davies "marriage" actually formally took place, and if it did, where it might've been concluded, and using what names...

[Cogidubnus]

Lynn

Thank you...I'll make a point of getting hold of a copy...I'm still not entirely sure why, but MJKs killing has always got under my skin more than all the rest...

Thanks mate
Dave

[lynn cates]

good luck

Hello Dave. Entirely welcome.

Happy hunting.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hi Debra

Yes I'm aware the average age for women for a formal marriage was 25.1 years...what I'm genuinely not aware of is how that figure was calculated...was that first marriages only? If it included second marriages, did it include the huge second marriage bulge (particularly among Jewish women), of the 1870/1880s?

From various websites it appears that formal marriages could be concluded at an age as low as 11/12 years...I really don't know...one site I visited even suggested a theoretical 7 years old for a bride (but did mercifully say the marriage could only be legally consumated at 16 years)...I really don't know...

But significantly, among the vast number of other things I don't know, is whether the Kelly/Davies "marriage" actually formally took place, and if it did, where it might've been concluded, and using what names...

Hi Dave,
Perhaps the figures were calculated by including 2nd marriages also, I couldn't say for definite they weren't. I still don't think it was that common from my own research experiences, but I can't prove it statistically.

The legal age for marriage for a female was 12 I think, but a 12 year old could not marry without parental consent, which was needed right up until the age of 21 as I understand it. A woman marrying at age 21 or above was classed as full age on certificates up until a certain period when it then became common to include an age (another thing which could skew the marriage age figures I guess).

If MJK was not legally married I don't understand why she suddenly felt embarrassed enough to lie about being married to the collier, to Barnett? She was forthcoming in telling him of her other relationships and co-habitations, she also started living with Barnett the day after she met him on the streets and never married him. It wasn't as if it would have been a shock to Barnett to find she hadn't been legally married to the collier when she lived with him? Why the need to lie?

I just don't get it. I think she may have been older than she let on to Barnett.

Debs

[Cogidubnus]

"It's me age doctor..."

I just don't get it. I think she may have been older than she let on to Barnett.

Hi Debra

Yes I suspect you're right - it was on that hunch I was looking back as far as 1870 for Kelly/Davies on the Welsh Colliery disaster website - why couldn't she marry a miner called Spoonwackett ?

All the best
Dave

[Robert]

Hi Debs

The story of the tragic marriage to the collier, the tragic death of her husband and (perhaps) the delay in being paid compensation, necessitating the switch to prostitution, all might have been calculated to arouse Barnett's sympathy and make him feel protective towards her. She would have been saying, "It's only bad luck that forced me to go on the streets." Maybe she spun this yarn to every man she met.

[DanaeChantel]

It appears to me that MJK was rather, not so much vague about her past, but that she possibly lied about her past and her age and could have even fabricated the entire story of being married to a collier just for sympathy from Barnett or from anyone for that matter. Did anyone ever actually see a letter from her supposed "brother"? Maybe he wasn't her brother but a friend or a lover perhaps, or he was someone she cared for as a brother. How does anyone know her siblings lived on London? Did she speak of them to anyone? Its odd that they would not have attended her services, even if they were ashamed.

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Danae.

"It's odd that they would not have attended her services, even if they were ashamed."

Precisely!

Cheers.
LC