Mjk

[Sally]

I tend to believe, we overdo the desperate plight bit.
Yes she was behind with her rent, but she had been so for weeks.
As for nourishment .. Stoutly built , trips to the pub with obvious alcohol consumption, not to mention the remains of fish and potatoes from a recent meal.
She appears to have obtained all of this prior to midnight, so why venture out again, on the cold and damp streets with a possible encounter with a maniac.?

Yep, I agree Richard.

She had been behind with the rent for weeks - if McCarthy was that concerned over it she'd have been evicted. She wasn't.

As for the drinks and meal - most likely they were bought for her. I believe there was a fish and chip shop nearby - corner of Osborne Street? - a couple of years later, don't know if it was there in 1888, but maybe that's what we're looking at. That or Eels and Mash

After what appears to have been copious amounts of alchohol, more taken back to her room, and food on the way, I find it easier to believe that she eventually simply went to bed. I'm sure most of us have done the same at some point in our lives.

I don't know how much credence we should give the tale of Kelly's premonition - probably simple sensationalism after the fact. If true, however, I might consider her alleged Fenian connections again...

[Robert]

I think McCarthy sold meals.

I have never heard of a plate being found in her room, though, so maybe she ate somewhere else.

[Sally]

Did he? I wonder what he sold?

Regarding plates:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=15386

There appear to be some in the cupboard in Kelly's room.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Richard

We will then have to agree to disagree on the desperate plight bit.

But I do wonder how she obtained that last meal, or how she bought those drinks down the pub.

I would suggest that Mr Blotchy man may have provided them. And that all signs point to Mary not venturing out again after her encounter with said blotchy. (yes, hutchs A-mann was a total fabrication).

She was extremely inebriated
seemed comfortably settled in with Blotchy (probably knew him)
Food in her belly, more drink in hand
Singing happily
Possibly money in pocket from Blotchy
Looking forward to the big show the next day
Horrible weather
warm fire



The rent could wait

[Robert]

Sally, yes I think there were reports of crockery, which I suppose covers plates.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Sally.
The dream being ''sensationalism'' is a fair point, however it was mentioned to Kit Watkins some three years after the event , not in 1888 .[.in print], and considering Lottie had no pre warning of a Canadian reporter interviewing her , she had a vivid imagination .
Also the subject of the dream, being ''Murdered'' is rather apt for Mrs prater's inquest description of the cry,''Like awakening from a nightmare'', and the cry ''Oh murder'' would be a fitting cry ..would you not accept?
I have always offered this as a possible explanation for the crying out at 4am, a repeat of her premonition, especially if she was feeling worried, and possibly alcohol induced,
''The horrors of drink indeed''
Regards Richard.

[Sally]

Hi Richard

The dream being ''sensationalism'' is a fair point, however it was mentioned to Kit Watkins some three years after the event , not in 1888 .[.in print], and considering Lottie had no pre warning of a Canadian reporter interviewing her , she had a vivid imagination .

Interesting Richard - but by then Kelly had no doubt become something of an urban legend. She was also the most romantic of the victims, because she was young, and pretty. We always see more tragedy in the death of the young and attractive - it shouldn't make a difference, but it does.

Also the subject of the dream, being ''Murdered'' is rather apt for Mrs prater's inquest description of the cry,''Like awakening from a nightmare'', and the cry ''Oh murder'' would be a fitting cry ..would you not accept?
I have always offered this as a possible explanation for the crying out at 4am, a repeat of her premonition, especially if she was feeling worried, and possibly alcohol induced,

Yes, very apt. I think the cry of 'Murder' has been shown to have been in common parlance at the time - can't remember where I've seen that, probably there is a thread devoted to the matter somewhere - so perhaps we shouldn't see it as specific to Mary Kelly; more the cry that we might expect if somebody was under threat.

Having said all that, if she did predict her own death, then perhaps Lynn has a point Proving it, as usual, is another matter.

Best regards Richard

[Chava]

She probably ate the fish and chips in the street out of a newspaper (yumm....It's been a while since I ate fish and chips like that! All salty with malt vinegar and crunchy bits on top....)

But I digress!

One thing that always interests me is that I believe all the victims were drunk when they died. Not that it would be an unusual finding among the doss-house-dwellers. But everyone of them except possibly Liz Stride were described as drunk by the last credible witnesses who saw them. I can't believe that's a coincidence. The only one that probably couldn't have been picked up in a gin-palace would be Chapman unless the pubs etc around there were open all night to cater for the market porters.

[Wickerman]

As for nourishment .. Stoutly built , trips to the pub with obvious alcohol consumption, not to mention the remains of fish and potatoes from a recent meal.
She appears to have obtained all of this prior to midnight, so why venture out again, on the cold and damp streets with a possible encounter with a maniac.?
Regards Richard.

Those eateries where they sold meat & potatoes were open well after midnight.
We have no idea when MJK ate her last meal. Dr. Bond assumed it was just before midnight but there is no record of why he assumed this. Common sense dictates he received his info from the police, but where they got their info from is open to debate.

Mrs Cox was in and out through the night so playing the "horrible weather" card is not consistent with the number of people we know were out and about.
We do have a couple standing outside the Britannia, then there's Sarah Lewis, Mrs Kennedy, Mrs Cox. and of course Hutchinson, all standing or wandering about between 2:00-3:00 am, none of which substantiates a "bad weather" argument.
Kelly could easily have gone out again after her liaison with Blotchy, and especially as now she has money.

Regards, Jon S.

[curious]

One thing that always interests me is that I believe all the victims were drunk when they died.

Polly Nichols was.

Annie Chapman was not. Doctor could not discover any recent alcohol.

Liz Stride was not. ditto

Kate Eddowes was supposedly sober enough to be let out of jail.

Mary Jane Kelly was.

Martha Tabram -- most likely.

Emma Smith -- perhaps

Rose Mylett -- probably

Alice McKenzie -- most likely

Frances Coles -- not reported, if so.

so, no, not all were drunk.

curious

[Phil H]

But Chapman had an illness that made her as if she was suffering inebriation - she was dying.

Hadn't Coles been on a bender with Saddler? If so, she (and Kate Eddowes) would still have been suffering somewhat, surely.

Phil H

[curious]

But Chapman had an illness that made her as if she was suffering inebriation - she was dying.

Hadn't Coles been on a bender with Saddler? If so, she (and Kate Eddowes) would still have been suffering somewhat, surely.

Phil H

Yes, Chapman was quite ill. I'm not sure how it made her appear.

Saddler was certainly on a bender that unlucky night. Not sure about Coles. Perhaps if he were buying. I looked hastily but did not find any mention of alcohol for her.

[Cogidubnus]

Those eateries where they sold meat & potatoes were open well after midnight. We have no idea when MJK ate her last meal.

Quite true Jon...Wasn't it McCarthy's shop that Isaac Jacob, (the chap who stumbled onto the Alice McKenzie murder scene) was heading for when detained by PC Andrews? I thought I'd seen it in the Ultimate Sourcebook, but having checked again, McCarthy's shop isn't mentioned in there...or perhaps it's a different source or witness I'm thinking of?

But if McCarthy's did sell hot food, and MJK had a slate with him, then there's a kind of logic in her getting the meal there...and on a cold night why go further than you have to, to get your grub?

Looking at the contrary viewpoint I can't really see her at this stage trying to avoid him because of her arrears...she'd bought a candle in the shop only that week hadn't she?

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Quite true Jon...Wasn't it McCarthy's shop that Isaac Jacob, (the chap who stumbled onto the Alice McKenzie murder scene) was heading for when detained by PC Andrews? I thought I'd seen it in the Ultimate Sourcebook, but having checked again, McCarthy's shop isn't mentioned in there...or perhaps it's a different source or witness I'm thinking of?

Good point Dave, I'd forgotten about that. It was the midnight supper Coles had which was on my mind.

This must be what you remembered..

"Isaac Lewis Jacobs said - I live at 12 Newcastle place, and am a boot maker. About ten minutes to 1 this morning I left home to buy some supper in M'Carthy's, in Dorset street."
The Times, 18 July, 1889.

Another report says he went for Cheese & pickles.
I don't know if McCarthy sold hot food (assuming the fish and potatoes were hot)

Looking at the contrary viewpoint I can't really see her at this stage trying to avoid him because of her arrears...she'd bought a candle in the shop only that week hadn't she?

All the best

Dave

Indeed she had.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

That's the one Jon!

Thanks...knew I'd seen it somewhere

All the best

Dave