Mjk

[Sally]

..she was a street walker and as such HAD to go out at that time. Initiating contact with strange men was what it was all about.

Indeed Jon. By the time Hutchinson gave his statement to the police, that was common knowledge. Whether she had to, or indeed did, go out again on the night of her death is another matter, I think.

I think Richard is right - she was scared of the Ripper like any other woman forced on to the streets would have been. To go home from the pub with a man - whom she may have known, or not, we can't tell - relatively early, when there were still a lot of people about, is one thing. To go out in the far quieter early hours of the morning, pick up a stranger - if he was such - and take him back to her room is another.

To my mind, something is not right with the story. Perhaps she was foolhardy, and it cost her her life - perhaps Astrakhan Man was real and she did know him, making a fatal mistake in taking him back to her room; perhaps Hutchinson invented him, for reasons unknown, and it was actually Blotchy who killed her; or perhaps those who suspect Hutchinson are correct, and he did it.

I suspect that we may never know the truth.

[Sally]

Sorry Richard, we crossed posts there

[Sally]

Actually reading Richard's post I will make another point. Kelly was young and by contemporary accounts, attractive. Would she need to go out at 2am to pick up a punter?

I have always wondered whether the Ripper's choice of victims was to do with a preference for middle-aged prostitutes, or whether they were the unfortunate vicitms because they were the only ones available in the early morning because they were the ones who had no other choice.

I suspect the latter.

[Fisherman]

Sally:

"Kelly was young and by contemporary accounts, attractive. Would she need to go out at 2am to pick up a punter?"

She was way behind with the rent, we know that much. Apparently her relative youth and good looks had not prohibited that development. She therefore must have needed money. Of course, that must not mean that she needed to go out specifically at 2 AM (or 3 ...) to shape up economically. But the incentive would have been there, we know that much.

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

The young and attractive Frances Coles was wandering around, at her cost, at about that same time.

She immediatley went to buy a meal after one encounter down Leman St, and after that went wandering towards the docks.

[Fisherman]

Yes, Jon, I think it is hard to imagine the conditions under which these people lived, so close to us in time, but so very far away in many other respects.

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Absolutley, Christer.

Blimey, it`s been a while since we`ve agreed!! :-)

[Fisherman]

True, Jon - let´s relish the moment!

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

sundry

Hello Sally. Thanks.

“Ok, thanks for correcting me!”

Anything for clarity’s sake.

“But Kelly was a prostitute.”

Well, if Barnett’s story were correct. To date, not a single shred of Barnett’s story has been confirmed.

“ if she was an informant, surely she'd have been paid for that service?’

I would have said, “Paid well.” Have you seen the kind of money that Frank Millen commanded? Are you aware of Alice Carroll’s fee?

“Prostitution was the last - often only - resort of those who had little choice if they wished to survive - not a career choice.”

Agreed. But vide supra.

“If you find the first part of your statement likely, then of course you require a reason in order to support it. But, I am bound to ask, as warning against what?”

A warning that there was an information leak and that she were in jeopardy. Actually, this had happened before in a similar network. Incidentally, when Sir Ed received the sack, he argued that, if he were gone, some of his agents would be in mortal danger.

“Interesting - yet no demonstrable connection with Kelly.”

No, only a possible explanation for the timing.

“I believe I have, I think in fact that you kindly supplied a link for me in the past. I was very interested to read that description, due to the possibility that he did indeed closely resemble Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan Man. I think I saw most (if not all) of those similarities as generic.”

Which, of course, is your privilege. No one can interpret the evidence for us. It is a very private function.

“But I have thought about a great deal of other things since then, so perhaps I am mistaken. If you would be so kind as to point me in the right direction, I'll gladly have another look - I certainly wouldn't want to pronounce with confidence on any matter without full possession of the facts.”

Entirely agreed.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3835&page=43&highlight=astrakhan

It is post #430.

“Thanks for your reply Lynn.”

Don’t mention it. And thank you for your courteous posting and reasoned reflections. Quite refreshing.

Cheers.
LC

[Sally]

The young and attractive Frances Coles was wandering around, at her cost, at about that same time.

She immediatley went to buy a meal after one encounter down Leman St, and after that went wandering towards the docks.

She was, but not in the midst of the Ripper scare. I suppose it might be argued that it had been a few weeks and people were starting to relax a bit. All the same, evidence such as we have suggests that Kelly was still fearful.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Sally

I don`t disagree that Kelly had demonstrated concern over the recent murders. My point, in replying to Richard, was that Kelly had no choice but to go out at that time (if she wanted to eat, drink or chuck some money towards McCarthy).

[richardnunweek]

Hi Sally.
I would say it's a good bet that Mary was still fearful.
Oral history suggests, that on the very bed she was murdered ,sometime since 30TH sept she had a bad dream that she was being murdered, she had told a neighbour Lottie that it had shaken her,
How ironic if this tale is true, that she should meet her death. on the very bed she had that vision.
No wonder she had sleepovers, and walked about, rather then stay alone in that dingy room, one wonders how many times she had told this tale ,and whose ears it fell upon?
Creepy stuff..
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon,
I tend to believe, we overdo the desperate plight bit.
Yes she was behind with her rent, but she had been so for weeks.
As for nourishment .. Stoutly built , trips to the pub with obvious alcohol consumption, not to mention the remains of fish and potatoes from a recent meal.
She appears to have obtained all of this prior to midnight, so why venture out again, on the cold and damp streets with a possible encounter with a maniac.?
Regards Richard.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Richard

We will then have to agree to disagree on the desperate plight bit.

But I do wonder how she obtained that last meal, or how she bought those drinks down the pub.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon,
Yes indeed, a bit like the drink provider in Aldgate in the case of Eddowes.
Regards Richard.