Mjk

[Wickerman]

I know this is not an original thought , but I think Mary found a client and brought him indoors for a little privacy.

Unfortunately for her, that client just happened to be our man Jack.

Now you're letting logic get in the way of a good yarn..
:-)

Simplicity is often the best policy.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

...So what put her of guard?
Hutchinson's man who was not her usual client[ according to Hutchinson] carrying a small parcel would have sent alarm bells ringing despite her need for money.

Maybe she did know him, from earlier that night?

"...At eleven o'clock last night she was seen in the 'Britannia,' at the corner of this thoroughfare, with a young man with a dark moustache. The young man appeared to be very respectable and well dressed. "
Morning Advertiser, 10 Nov. 1888.

Regards, Jon S.

[kensei]

I will confess, as I have before, that I am one of the believers of Hutchinson's story of Astrakan Man, and that Astrakan was Mary's killer and Jack the Ripper. I understand that this theory has many detractors who make some very good points about why it doesn't make sense, but I feel that with Jack we are dealing with a twisted mind, the decisions of which do not need to make sense. I think Mary was desperate to make the rent money she needed and that's what she was doing the night she died, and that since she was by all accounts quite drunk that night she would not have been thinking straight so her decisions as to caution, etc. do not need to make sense either. I think she had some fun with Blotchy, he shared his drink with her and probably paid her a bit, and then he was off. She then went back out and drunkenly encountered her friend Hutchinson and asked him for money straight out without propositioning him, because she considered him a friend she would never sleep with, though he may have had a crush on her and wished otherwise. Then came Astrakan, who broke through all her cautions because she was really quite staggering drunk by that time. He was the Ripper, dressed in a manner he'd never employed before because he knew he was a hunted man and that his usual "dark overcoat and peaked cap" had been seen and described a few times. In his mind, he was in disguise. It doesn't matter that looking like a rich toff walking the streets of Spitalfields was an invitation to be knifed to death for whatever you had in your pockets, because we're talking about a crazy person here, and he ended up being just incredibly lucky that that didn't happen to him. What poetic justice it would have been if it had.

Astrakan in the room with Mary- she was so drunk, her head swimming. She probably started to undress to get down to business with him, but ended up passing out on the bed in her chemise. She may have awakened long enough to cry out when he attacked her, but would have offered little other resistance. The Ripper, obsessed with mutilating the female body, found himself with time and privacy he'd never had before and indulged it for all it was worth. When he was finished, he made his exit. I've wondered whether the cry of "Oh, murder!" was made by Mary herself just before her death, or by some passerby who saw Jack emerge from the room stained with blood or holding his knife. Then again, I've always imagined him disrobing at least to the point of being shirtless while committing the atrocity, both for sexual fulfillment and to avoid bloodstains on his clothes, with the fire he fueled with the extra clothing items for warmth on the cold November night.

There is an analogy I like to use for Maxwell's insistence on seeing Mary alive four hours after the time that she probably died. In 1999 when the famous Yosemite Park, California killings happened for which serial killer Cary Stayner was sentenced to death, when victims Carol and Julie Sund and their exchange student friend Silvina Pelosso were still listed as missing, a witness came forward who ran a store in the area. She swore she had seen the three women in her store at a time after they would eventually become known to be already dead. She even remembered Silvina talking about how she was from Argentina, and she absolutely insisted that this had happened on a day after the three could not possibly have still been alive. How can you explain it? It just happens. People make mistakes in timelines that you will never convince them of.

[c.d.]

Hello Kensei,

Then we have to believe that Astrakan had absolutely no qualms about killing Mary after being seen at close range by Hutch.

c.d.

[GregBaron]

Unconcerned by witnesses...

Then we have to believe that Astrakan had absolutely no qualms about killing Mary after being seen at close range by Hutch.

True c.d. but then Sailor Man (apparently) had no trouble killing Eddowes after being seen at close range by the three Jewish fellers.............




Greg

[c.d.]

Hi Greg,

That could be true but I see a difference in the two situations. Sailor man might not have realized that they were looking in his direction. Even so, he might have reasonably assumed that they were not taking notice of him.

I believe GH's story (taken with many a grain of salt). I think that he was trying to intimidate the Astrakan man into changing his mind or at the very least discourage him from an all nighter. Thus, leaning in and peering at him would make sense and would also give him a good description that could be passed along to the police.

c.d.

[GregBaron]

Disguise successful?

That could be true but I see a difference in the two situations. Sailor man might not have realized that they were looking in his direction. Even so, he might have reasonably assumed that they were not taking notice of him.

I believe GH's story (taken with many a grain of salt). I think that he was trying to intimidate the Astrakan man into changing his mind or at the very least discourage him from an all nighter. Thus, leaning in and peering at him would make sense and would also give him a good description that could be passed along to the police.

Fair enough c.d. but if kensei's theory is correct, Astro-Man's confidence was well founded as, despite the eyewitness, he mysteriously went un-apprehended..............





Greg

[c.d.]

Hi Greg,

Yeah, it's a head scratcher. Perhaps GH embellished his story to such an extent that the police completely discredited it and saw no point in wasting man power looking for the man he described.

c.d.

[DVV]

As far as I'm concern, Hutch and Astrakhan Man vanished at about the same time.

[GregBaron]

Let sleeping dogs lie...

Yeah, it's a head scratcher. Perhaps GH embellished his story to such an extent that the police completely discredited it and saw no point in wasting man power looking for the man he described.

I think they did look for him for some time c.d. but then disbanded. We probably shouldn't go too deep here though or we might wake up Ben and Fisherman. Heaven forbid!

For some reason, I feel like A-Man could be the key to the whole puzzle...


Greg

[DVV]

Last sighting Sunday morning, Nov 11....believe this you'll believe everything...

[kensei]

Here's another analogy from modern times- Ted Bundy had no qualms about abducting a woman from the beach at Lake Samamish, killing her, then going back and abducting and killing another one the same day from the same place, all in front of hundreds of witnesses with no disguise to his face whatsoever. Serial killers are a strange lot.

[Malcolm X]

I think they did look for him for some time c.d. but then disbanded. We probably shouldn't go too deep here though or we might wake up Ben and Fisherman. Heaven forbid!

For some reason, I feel like A-Man could be the key to the whole puzzle...


Greg

for sure Ben will be back, dont forget that he's not allowed to talk about GH till about FEB time
BEN and i were the original GH supporters, but i'm not so sure now.

to be honest it's a close run thing, it's either GH breaking in at 4am or this LA DE DA.

MJK would have to have been blind drunk not to sense danger, because you can still sense danger if you're only moderately drunk, but if she was this drunk she wouldn't have been able to walk up Dorset st, she'd be puking up in the gutter and falling all over the place.

GH behaves oddly, far too oddly and this tells me that he's up to something or that he's a very strange person, i.e i would never wait outside her place for 50 mins etc etc etc..... the list of oddities about him is endless, but this might not be enough to mean that he JTR.

i'm at the stage now where i cant take JTR any further without tackling this from another angle.

1.....i doubt GH was in the same area as the A.Chapman suspect, and it looks as if she went with him to have sex, this suspect could be LA DE DA

2......Eddowes looks like someone similar to GH or as an example only, JOE BARNETT......but definitely not similar to the A.CHAPMAN suspect.

so at these 2 crucial stages, where it's very hard to argue that these suspects aren't JTR, we have two totally different suspects seen. GH did not kill A.Chapman


conclusion :- i would take care of this A.Chapman sighting, because this is almost definitely JTR, it's sheer fluke that she would say no to him and then bump into JTR within the next 10 mins, especially when she said ``yes `` to him.

did Sailor boy kill Eddowes, or did Lawende even see her !......did Sailor boy walk off and JTR quickly jump i, because this guy doesn't look like the foreigner above.

whose JTR is anyones guess but it looks like a foreigner who changes his appearence, he'll be a crafty sod and look like an older version of G.Chapman.

GH based his suspect on the bloke seen by S.LEWIS and Kennedy and just went totally OTT.

for me JTR is either him or G.Chapman...... at the moment

[Malcolm X]

Last sighting Sunday morning, Nov 11....believe this you'll believe everything...

yes this is the one thing you can state as a fact, JTR did not kill her after 8am, this area is way too busy.

in fact, i'm very surprised that he killed A.CHAPMAN when he did, but after 8am is just plain rediculous....what the hell is he still doing looking for a victim at 5 to 6am doesn't this monster know when to quit.

this might be a huge clue, he's not just a mutilator, he's a flipping stay up all night oddball, walking the streets all night, this points back to GH, but he looks nothing like him......HANG AROUND A MINUTE...... do we know if GH was fair or dark, sorry because i'm presuming he's fair, but what happens if he was dark and foreign looking, can somone check this for me, because i'm pretty sure that we dont know what he looks like, only medium height and stout, we dont even know his age?

[lynn cates]

good points

Hello Malcolm.

"I'm at the stage now where I can't take JTR any further without tackling this from another angle."

I say, I know that feeling.

"1.....I doubt GH was in the same area as the A.Chapman suspect, and it looks as if she went with him to have sex"

I share those doubts

"2......Eddowes looks like someone similar to GH or as an example only, JOE BARNETT......but definitely not similar to the A.CHAPMAN suspect."

Good, good.

"so at these 2 crucial stages, where it's very hard to argue that these suspects aren't JTR, we have two totally different suspects seen."

Ah!

"GH did not kill A.Chapman"

Completely agree.

"conclusion :- I would take care of this A.Chapman sighting, because this is almost definitely JTR"

Leather Apron, perhaps? JTR was not yet "born."

Cheers.
LC