Sexuality

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Putting aside for one moment all the decades of accepted Ripper folklore, has anyone ever considered that in the complete obliteration of sexuality the Millers Court victim may have been a man?

Regards,

Simon

[Monty]

Seeing as the medical facts made at the scene and mortuary indicate the body was female, I'd be interested to hear the reason behind such an idea.

Monty

[Steven Russell]

Hi All,

Putting aside for one moment all the decades of accepted Ripper folklore, has anyone ever considered that in the complete obliteration of sexuality the Millers Court victim may have been a man?

Regards,

Simon

Were they his breasts or someone else's?

Best wishes,
Steve.

[lynn cates]

making a clean breast of it

Hello Simon. Given the mutilation in a certain area, yes, it has crossed my mind.

I think my biggest problem here is the presence of the removed breasts.

Ideas?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sorry

Hello Steven. Oops, posts crossed. Sorry.

Well, we are thinking alike. (That should worry you.)

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

I just knew it that the Recent connexion thread would lead to an escalation.

[Monty]

Ribs

Monty

[Steven Russell]

Lynn - absolutely no problem.

Monty - maybe not ribs but pelvis?

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Hunter]

Where did the killer get the uterus and a breast to place under the victims head?

Maybe some of the folklore should be put aside... but the evidence?

[DVV]

Seeing as the medical facts made at the scene and mortuary indicate the body was female, I'd be interested to hear the reason behind such an idea.

Monty

So would I, my dear.

[DVV]

Will the Real Tranny Kelly...?

[ChrisGeorge]

From the inquest on Mary Jane Kelly in the Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, November 13, 1888:

Mr. George Bagster Phillips, divisional surgeon of police, said: I was called by the police on Friday morning at eleven o'clock, and on proceeding to Miller's-court, which I entered at 11.15, I found a room, the door of which led out of the passage at the side of 26, Dorset-street, photographs of which I produce. It had two windows in the court. Two panes in the lesser window were broken, and as the door was locked I looked through the lower of the broken panes and satisfied myself that the mutilated corpse lying on the bed was not in need of any immediate attention from me, and I also came to the conclusion that there was nobody else upon the bed, or within view, to whom I could render any professional assistance. Having ascertained that probably it was advisable that no entrance should be made into the room at that time, I remained until about 1.30p.m., when the door was broken open by McCarthy, under the direction of Superintendent Arnold. On the door being opened it knocked against a table which was close to the left-hand side of the bedstead, and the bedstead was close against the wooden partition. The mutilated remains of a woman were lying two-thirds over, towards the edge of the bedstead, nearest the door. Deceased had only an under-linen garment upon her, and by subsequent examination I am sure the body had been removed, after the injury which caused death, from that side of the bedstead which was nearest to the wooden partition previously mentioned. The large quantity of blood under the bedstead, the saturated condition of the palliasse, pillow, and sheet at the top corner of the bedstead nearest to the partition leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead and her head and neck in the top right-hand corner. [Emphasis mine.]

*******************

Dr. Thomas Bond's post mortem on the victim, returned anonymously to Scotland Yard in 1987, does not mention the sex of the corpse but we might suspect that if he had discovered to his surprise that the victim was a man, he would have made a note of that fact, and also that he might have speculated about the origin of the extracted uterus and breasts found in the room if they had not belonged to the body on the bed.

Best regards

Chris

[jerryd]

That would mean then Simon, Joe Barnett was aka Ben Dover!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

jerryd

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

'Twas merely but a passing thought.

A System of Legal Medicine
Volume 1, Allan McLane Hamilton, M.D., F.R.S.E. [1848—1919], 2nd Edition, New York 1900.*

"2. Sex - The distinction of sex where a whole unmutilated corpse is presented for inspection is too obvious to require comment. On the other hand, if the body is mutilated and decomposed, great care is required on the part of the expert, and still further difficulties are presented when it is a skeleton alone with which he has to deal.

"Indeed, there may be cases where the whole body has been so badly mutilated that it is by the preparation of the skeleton alone that an idea of the sex may be formed.

Just such a case might have occurred in one of the so called Whitechapel murders in London, in the years 1887-89. Here nine women were murdered and mutilated by an unknown assassin. In the particular illustrative instance, the woman was murdered in a bedroom. The body was naked when found. The eyebrows, eyelids, ears, nose, lips and chin had been cut off, and the face gashed by numerous knife-cuts.

"The breasts had been cut off, and the whole abdominal parietes, together with the external organs of generation had been removed. The skin and much of the muscular tissue, not, however, exposing the bone, had been slashed away from the anterior*aspect of the thighs as far as the knees. The abdominal viscera and pelvic viscera, including bladder, vagina, and uterus with appendages, had been torn from their cavities and in fact there was no sign of sex except the long hair upon the head, and, as is well known, that alone is not a positive sign, inasmuch as in some nations the hair is worn long by men.

"The fact the whole bladder had been removed did away with the help that might have been afforded by the presence of the prostate gland.

"In this case, to be sure, all the organs except the heart were found scattered around the room, and showed the sex without doubt.

"But if all the organs and parts had been taken away or the body exposed to the effects of decomposition, a careful preparation of the skeleton would have been imperative to decide that the body was that of a woman.

"It might further be stated that in this case, in consequence of the hacking of the features, the presence or absence of a beard could not be stated, and if the hair had been designedly cut off there would have been absolutely no sign by which sex could have been determined.

"The hair on the pubes had been removed in this case, and the difference in the growth of the pubic hair tapering up towards the umbilicus in the male, and simply surrounding the organs of generation in the female, could not be availed as an indication of sex."

Regards,

Simon

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

Having removed a quote from Simon from your signature, I respectfully ask you to do the same with mine. It would be appreciated. Thank you.

Phil